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Welcome to the Fixing Separation Anxiety podcast, where it's all about healing your dog, regaining

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your freedom, and getting your life back on track.

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And now, here's your host, Julie May Smith.

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My dogs love fetch, all three of them, and I love that.

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It makes me happy, it makes me joyful to see them having so much fun, but sometimes I feel

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like I might be swimming against the tide.

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Occasionally, I will see posts, usually on Facebook, denouncing fetch as a terrible preoccupation

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for dogs, something that we should absolutely not let them do, and this horrifies me.

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So as somebody who cares about enrichment, because of the impact that enrichment can

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have on dogs' brains, their anxiety and their stress levels, I'm absolutely passionate about

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anything that can enrich our dogs' lives.

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And that's why I need to talk about fetch, because there's so much misinformation about

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fetch, and it's time to set the record straight.

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Okay, so what is fetch?

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Why do dogs play fetch?

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Well, fetch actually has a function, and that function is completely natural and normal.

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All animals have what are called fixed action pattern behaviours.

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These behaviours are innate behaviours that basically are genetically pre-programmed into

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the animal.

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So the animal doesn't have to learn these behaviours, they just come into the world

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knowing how to do them.

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Unlike the fawn that can get onto its legs and run away from a predator or go and hide,

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it doesn't learn that, it's just genetically wired to do so.

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Now, with most animals, feeding is a fixed action pattern.

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It would be really difficult to come into the world not knowing how to find your food

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in the wild.

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Obviously, humans are a bit different there, though we do come with our own fixed action

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patterns too.

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So as an animal, it's really helpful to come into the world knowing where your food is

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coming from.

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With dogs, we know that they source their food in two ways.

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One is they scavenge for food, and the second is they hunt for food.

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And hunting is very much driven by a fixed action pattern.

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Here's where I'm going with this.

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If you think about what goes into the hunting of prey, how dogs track, trace and eat their

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food, a big component of that behaviour, that innate pattern of behaviour is chasing and

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capturing the prey.

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It's normal behaviour.

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It's what animals who hunt for food do.

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They chase animals in order to capture them, kill them and eat them.

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So dogs come into the world knowing how to chase things.

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Just because they're domesticated doesn't mean to say that they lose their fixed action

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patterns.

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They don't need them anymore because we're feeding them.

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So they don't need to know how to hunt down prey because we're providing them their food.

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But the thing about fixed action patterns is they can even remain in domesticated animals

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who no longer need those patterns to survive.

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A great example of that is the dog who resource guards.

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Resource guarding is another example of an innate behaviour that's no longer helpful

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to the dog.

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Dog doesn't need to resource guard because for most dogs they get everything they need

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from their owner.

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But it's kind of their buggy software that hasn't quite adapted to the world of domestication.

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And that's why you will see some dogs will resource guard while many others won't.

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Some dogs will be mad for fetch where some dogs could not care less about chasing.

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But when a dog does love to chase, it's just carrying out a really natural and normal and

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instinctive behaviour, a behaviour that it was born predisposed to loving.

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And that's another reason why I love seeing dogs play fetch.

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Not only do I see the joy in the moment, but with that dog, the dog who loves to play fetch,

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we are giving them an outlet for their natural dogishness.

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And what happens to animals in captivity who don't get to do the things that come naturally to them?

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Well, we have a lot of evidence from the world of zoos when it comes to animals who aren't

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given outlets for their natural innate behaviour.

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And what happens, and it happens in far too many cases, is captive animals can develop

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a form of psychosis.

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It's actually called zookosis because it's a form of psychosis that develops as a result of captivity.

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And you might have seen the horrific pictures.

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Just recently, I watched a very, very brief portion of The Tiger King, the Netflix documentary

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that everybody was raving about.

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I found it really difficult because I really struggled to see so many animals being kept

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in such terrible for them conditions.

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And what did it for me, the deal breaker, was seeing a tiny bear cub in a cage.

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And this bear cub was just pacing up and down, up and down, but with great momentum.

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So a very rapid pace, back and forth, back and forth.

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And as it picked up the pace and as it worked its way backwards and forwards from one end

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to the cage to the other and got quicker and quicker, it then started leaping at the cage

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at the end of each lap.

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So it would jump at the cage, go to the other end, jump, go to the other end, jump.

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It was heartbreaking.

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That is an absolute classic example of zookosis.

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One of the people working for The Tiger King, who's responsible for this bear, is stood

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in front of the cage and is asked, is that bear happy?

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The answer, yeah, happy for them.

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The bear has never known anything other than the cage.

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So it's happy.

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Nonsense.

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It's absolute rubbish.

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Fixed action patterns because they are genetic.

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The behaviors that animals need to perform because they're hardwired into them.

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It doesn't matter whether the animal has never experienced that.

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It's not true that they can't miss something they've never experienced.

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And that was a quote that came up too.

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It is not true.

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Animals cannot miss things they have never experienced.

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If a baby was born in a prison cell and spent its life in a prison, it would miss all the

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things that we as humans need to thrive.

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So that statement, you can't miss what you've never experienced, is nonsense.

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And it's especially nonsense when it comes to fixed action patterns.

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So think about tigers.

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Think about bears.

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Bears are genetically programmed to roam for miles and miles and miles hunting and eating.

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Similarly, large territories, lots of activity, looking for prey, consuming prey, falling

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asleep after having consumed prey.

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All of those things come naturally.

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And when animals get deprived of doing the things that come naturally, that's when problems

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start and that's why we see zookosis.

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So let me tell you a bit about zookosis.

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Zookosis is when we see what are called stereotypical behaviors.

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And these are repetitive behaviors that serve no purpose.

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So there's no reason for them.

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Think about the bear that I described, running from one end of this tiny cage to another

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and leaping at the cage from one end to another.

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If you saw this bear, you would see this bear was not trying to escape.

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This bear had just got caught in this pattern of throwing itself at either end of the cage.

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Didn't look like an escape attempt.

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So there was no logic to it.

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This bear has just got caught in this repetitive, over and over and over again, this behavior

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that it could not stop.

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So zookosis or confinement zookosis is all about that repetitive behavior.

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It's ongoing and it serves no purpose.

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There's no reason for it.

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Another key about these behaviors is they almost never appear in wild animals.

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So when you observe a tiger grooming excessively in a zoo, you wouldn't see that level of grooming

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in the wild.

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So you almost never see these behaviors in the wild.

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Interestingly, you know, I'm a separation anxiety geek.

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Well, we definitely do see, as far as I'm concerned, stereotypies with dogs who've got

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separation anxiety.

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So remember, they're behaviors that are repetitive, but no longer serve a purpose.

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And I think that when we see dogs barking and barking, even though the barking doesn't

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bring the owner back, even though the barking goes on for eight hours, I'm almost certain

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that we're seeing some type of stereotypy there.

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We see dogs pace.

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We see that all the time.

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We see dogs pace up and down, up and down when their owner is gone.

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Doesn't achieve anything.

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There's no purpose to it.

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They're not going anywhere, but it happens.

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So those are stereotypical behaviors and they are not good.

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I wonder sometimes if what we do when we see dogs playing fetch over and over and over

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again, we're getting all muddled with tigers we've seen in zoos who pace up and down.

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There is no similarity.

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There is nothing the same about a dog who is genetically programmed to go and find food

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and hence to chase and a zoo animal who cannot stop a repetitive behavior that has no function.

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Now you might say to me, but fetch doesn't have a function.

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It absolutely does have a function.

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The function of fetch is it's part of the feeding ritual.

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It's a dog enacting part of the feeding ritual.

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And I tell you what, there are plenty of fun things that dogs love to do that are part

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of their feeding ritual.

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Some dogs love to chase, others love to be chased.

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Some dogs love dissecting.

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Some dogs love tug.

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Did you know that tug is actually a cooperative activity?

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And if you ever look at pictures of wild African dogs feeding on a carcass, you will

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see that they're all tugging at the carcass.

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So when your dog is playing tug with you, it isn't competing with you.

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It's helping to dissect the carcass.

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You two are working on the kill together.

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It's a cooperative game.

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It's not a game of you versus him.

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Now back to our zoo animals, guess what helps with stereotypies?

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Guess what helps stop those repetitive behaviors?

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Enrichment.

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So giving animals an outlet for their natural behaviors, giving them the things that they

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need to do, giving them something that relates to their instinct.

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Now enrichment doesn't completely stop the unwanted repetitive behaviors in zoo animals,

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but it does significantly reduce it in a number of cases.

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Some studies say it can reduce, that good enrichment activities can reduce the unwanted

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problem repetitive behaviors by in the region of 50%.

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So enrichment doesn't solve the problem, doesn't give them, it doesn't give zoo animals access

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to the things they really need to do, but enrichment can help.

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Feeding zoo animals out of puzzle feeders can help reduce these repetitive behaviors.

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Yes, zoo animals get puzzle feeders too.

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So we can give our dogs puzzle feeders and that's great because scavenging is one thing

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that they do like to do.

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Working on a puzzle feeder is kind of finding food.

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It's a bit like scavenging, but if a dog loves to fetch because it's genetically predisposed,

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if we stop that dog having, being able to play fetch, we're not letting it do the things

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that it needs to do.

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And if anything, a bigger problem with dogs isn't letting them do noisy, loud, crazy things

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like fetch or tug.

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It's the opposite.

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It's warehousing dogs.

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It's the captive comfort that we provide.

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They're in captivity and just because they are lazing around on our sofas doesn't mean

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to say that that calm behavior is a good thing.

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Sure, dogs do spend a lot of time sleeping.

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Wild dogs do, street dogs do, but they also spend a lot of time working.

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So street dogs constantly looking for food, wild dogs always looking for food.

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Yes, they sleep when they've eaten, but they don't sleep because there's nothing else to

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do.

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If there is a job to be done, if they need to go eat, they will go eat.

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Just because our dogs are calm, that's not necessarily a good thing.

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Bored isn't good for our dogs at all.

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Boredom is far worse for our dogs than giving them outlets for their dogishness.

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But then I wonder, why do we hate fetch though?

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If we know it's natural, if it's something that many dogs are programmed to do, why does

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it worry us so much?

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Why do I see so many blog articles about it?

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Why do I see comments on Facebook threads where people say categorically fetch is bad

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for dogs without any reference to any evidence or any explanation?

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Just this assumption, this belief that's out there that fetch is bad.

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And here's what I hear people say.

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Firstly, they'll say, I can't get my dog to stop playing.

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All he wants to do is play fetch.

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Well, you know what?

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We've got a lot of things in our lives that we would do as long as we could, if we could.

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There are plenty of people who love their sports, who would play their sports until

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they drop.

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There are plenty of kids who would stay at the playground and would not come home unless

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you absolutely told them it was time.

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It's not unnatural to want to keep going at something that you absolutely love.

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A second concern I hear is, my dog isn't focusing on me anymore.

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Well, yes and no.

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If you're playing fetch with your dog, you're playing with your dog.

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I would say that's hyper-focus.

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I would say that's brilliant focus.

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Your dog isn't wandering off and not coming back to you and ignoring your recall.

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Your dog is with you.

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Your dog is playing with you.

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I would say that's pretty awesome focus.

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And linked to that, people will say, but he's no longer playing with other dogs and that

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makes me sad.

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Well, here's the thing about most dogs.

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Dogs are a bit like kids and humans in the way that they play.

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And actually one of the reasons why, there's many reasons why we love dogs, but dogs play.

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Unlike a lot of adult animals, dogs play.

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Adult dogs play.

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So I think that's one of the reasons why we love dogs.

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One of the many reasons why we love dogs.

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So if you look at adult coyotes or adult wolves, they don't play.

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Adult dogs play.

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But here's what happens to play with dogs and this is why it's similar to us.

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When they're young, and you've seen this with puppies, they have a million friends, everybody's

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their friend, even the big horrible dogs who don't want to be friends, everybody's

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their friend.

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They have no selectivity.

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They want to play all the time and they want to play with everybody.

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So they're like the four year old, the four year old in kindergarten who has every friend,

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every person, every child in class is their best friend and they want to play all day.

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So dogs are like that.

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And as they get older, what happens is they play less.

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They just want to play less and they play more selectively.

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So they don't want to play with dogs as much as they used to and they have a more select

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bunch of friends.

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Doesn't that sound like humans?

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We definitely play less as we get older and our circle of friends tends to narrow, certainly

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the circle of friends with whom we play.

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If it seems like your dog no longer wants to play with you, just remember that that

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could be very natural.

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If your dog is 18 months, two years, three years, and you've seen the play decrease in

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the last year or so, that's just your dog going through a natural development where

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he wants to play less with other dogs and he has fewer doggy friends.

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So I'm overjoyed when a dog who stops wanting to play with other dogs as much starts wanting

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to play other games.

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Because we all know how tired dogs get when they play with other dogs.

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It wears dogs out.

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So if you've got a dog who used to do that, used to love it, but doesn't love it so much,

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what you going to do?

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Give him something else to do that he loves.

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And if he's a fetch head, let him play fetch.

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And another complaint is they seem so amped up.

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They are just on edge.

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That can't be good for their stress.

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That can't be good for their anxiety.

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Fetch is just so bad for that.

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Okay.

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Think back to the evidence about zoo animals and what we know.

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The problem that we have with zoo animals is that their stress levels rise when they

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can't get to do their natural things.

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It's not the other way around.

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It's not doing the natural thing causes anxiety and stress.

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It's not doing the thing that comes naturally that causes the anxiety and stress.

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So if you think that, and I see plenty of articles saying that fetch causes stress,

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it's the wrong way round.

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It's not being able to do the things that come naturally that causes stress.

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It's not doing them.

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It's not doing them.

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Go and look at the evidence about zoo animals and realize that it's not doing stuff that's

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a problem.

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Yeah.

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It can seem like dogs struggle to calm down after a game of fetch.

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Of course, if you've ever participated in any adrenaline sport, you'll know that, yeah,

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there is always that degree of your heart rate still racing, you're still quite buzzy

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from it, but the buzz wears off and you do get to a point where you just go, huh, I'm

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just going to chill now.

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And dogs do that.

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The vast majority of dogs who play fetch can switch off.

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It is not a bigger deal as the armchair experts make out.

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And I'm going to come on to in a second what you can do if you really do worry about some

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of these things.

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And another complaint that I hear and often from people who walk dogs or people who go

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to busy dogs, dog parks, is that ballplay causes dispute.

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And yet it can.

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And so any object, anything valuable can cause disputes between dogs.

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However, I do understand, and it's not always great PR to be at the dog park with a dog

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who gets growly and guards his ball from other dogs.

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So I do understand that that can be a problem.

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And then finally, and this to me is an absolutely valid concern.

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It's no good for his joints, his back.

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Not good.

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All that jumping, the quick turning.

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Really not cool for a dog from a musculoskeletal perspective.

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And I really, really do understand that.

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However, there are things you can do, both in terms of making the game safer by changing

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the way you play it and also making your dog more fetch fit.

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So if you've got any concerns about the physical side of playing fetch, then I highly recommend

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that you talk to a canine physical therapist, physiotherapist to get some advice on playing

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fetch with your dog.

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So if you are worried about any of these things, let me share some insights and some tips on

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how you can play fetch without concern.

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So if you're concerned about your dog not being able to stop playing, then you should

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think about starting to trade objects.

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Now it's interesting.

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Dog trainers do this naturally.

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From the moment a dog comes into the world, from the youngest age, you'll see dog trainers

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always trade when they take something off a dog.

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So if a dog has a puzzle feeder that maybe is empty and needs to go in the dishwasher,

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but the dog still has it, you'll see dog trainers naturally will trade for a treat.

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And why is that?

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Well, because we don't want resource guarding to develop.

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Most dogs don't develop resource guarding, but we'd rather it didn't.

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And we do this trade to remind dogs that they don't always get stuff taken away and

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it's not always a bad thing.

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Sometimes stuff gets taken away and a good thing happens.

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So if you've got a puppy or even if you haven't got a puppy, just think about always trading.

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Always trade.

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Don't take the ball off your dog and that be it.

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No wonder your dog's going to keep hold of the ball and not let you get it if every time

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you take the ball, fun stuff ends.

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And even after you've done the trade, so you take the ball off the dog, don't put the leash

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on straight away because then we've got two things going on.

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Not only has the fun ended, but now I'm going home too, so I can't play ball and we're leaving

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the park.

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Always end the game with a trade and then go for a little walk around the park.

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So build in five, 10 minutes to let your dog go have a sniff because we don't want the

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dog always thinking that when they surrender the ball to you, they are getting in the car

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and you are going home with them.

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Break that connection.

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And another way you can do that is you can stop and start the game during your outing.

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So you might play five minutes of fetch, do the trade with the amazing treat, take

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the ball, go and wander around the dog park, get the ball out again.

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So again, your dog is learning that when play stops, it's not the end of everything and

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it's not time to go home.

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You can also do this in front of other dogs too, and that's going to help with the issue

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of guarding.

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So if you want to stave off your dog getting all guardy and worried about its ball being

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taken off it, just do a trade in front of another dog.

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So the dog will see that other dogs being around is not a threat to them.

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Yes, you've just taken the ball off them, but hey, they just got an amazing bit of chicken.

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So that's another way that you can start to mitigate the dog's concern that when the ball

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goes, when the dog takes a ball from him, when you take a ball from him, everything

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fun stop.

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Now, there are certain conditions, it is true, where dogs do get so preoccupied with a behavior

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that it almost seems like it's obsessive.

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And I hear, I will hear people say, my dog plays fetch obsessively, a couple of things

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going on here.

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First of all, most likely the dog isn't surrendering the ball.

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So if you've got a dog that isn't surrendering the ball, you definitely want to start getting

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into some trade exercises.

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Do them at home, do them without the, do them when you're not playing fetch, do them using

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another object, not the ball, but start to make your dog realize that when you take stuff

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off them, it's okay because treats happen.

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There are some dogs who do find it almost impossible to stop, but they are few and far

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between.

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When you describe a dog as being obsessive, it is true that dogs can develop obsessive

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compulsive disorder, but let's be really clear about what obsessive means.

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It links back to that whole concept of stereotypes.

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Obsessive compulsive disorder in a dog is when a dog carries out a behavior over and

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over again, but with no focus.

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It's not the right behavior.

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They are, there's no outcome to the behavior.

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Dogs that stare at the ceiling, dogs that chase their tail.

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So they're doing things that have no sensible objective, but I've explained, I hope that

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fetch does actually have a reasonable objective.

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It's a replica of the feeding process.

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It's chase.

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It's normal.

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Chase is normal.

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Chasing your tail over and over and over again isn't normal.

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Chasing prey over and over and over again is.

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So when you describe your dog as being obsessive, just be careful because obsessive is very

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specific.

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Obsessive also means it's very hard to stop the dog doing it.

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Now I have seen dogs at the park who seem like they are obsessed and it would be impossible

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to stop them.

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I've got one of them myself, but most dogs can be interrupted.

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Most dogs will stop the game and get into the car.

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So it isn't true obsessive behavior in the way that obsessive behavior in dogs is defined.

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If the dog has a purpose, if it's the right objective, if it's an appropriate objective,

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it is not obsessive.

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It's enthusiastic.

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It's focused, but it's not obsessive in the way that we use obsessive to describe dog

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behavior.

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So yeah, let's be careful with our terms because terms do matter.

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Now if you're worried about your dog not settling after playing fetch, then that's definitely

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a time when you should think about breaking the game before you go home.

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So go for an extra 10 minutes after the end of the game.

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And if your dog's one of those dogs that brings you the ball at night, put the ball away.

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Put the toys away.

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If your dog starts crying at the door, start doing some rewards training with them.

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I've seen that.

404
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I have seen that.

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I do have a dog that does that occasionally.

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He'll sit and whine at the cupboard where, for him, it's his squeakies, where his squeakies

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are kept.

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So we'll just call him over and we'll start doing some fun treat training.

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We'll do paws up, we'll do downs, and we'll do sits, and we'll do cute stuff that breaks

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that focus for him.

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So there are absolutely things you can do if your dog playing fetch is concerning you.

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But I implore you, I beseech you, please let your fetch-loving dog play fetch.

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It's normal and it's natural.

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And you know what, best of all, it's joyful.

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You're letting your dog be a dog.

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You're giving your dog an outlet for its natural instinct.

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And seeing a dog being able to be a dog, isn't that something to be celebrated rather

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than something to be feared?

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And instead of worrying about all these dogs who find things they love to do, let's worry

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about the ones who sleep all day long, who are bored, because all we're doing is keeping

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them in comfortable captivity.

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That's it from me this week.

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I will see you on the next episode.

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Bye for now.

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Thank you for listening to the Fixing Separation Anxiety podcast with Julie Nae Smith.

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For more information, visit our website at www.subthresholdtraining.com.

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00:25:47,979 --> 00:25:54,540
If you haven't yet, go to Apple Podcasts and subscribe, rate, and review this podcast.

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00:25:54,540 --> 00:25:55,540
Thank you for joining us.

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We'll see you again soon.

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Bye-bye.

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