1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,360 I don't think I'll ever stop talking about crates as long as I do this podcast because 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:10,560 it seems like there's just an ongoing confusion about the role of crates in separation anxiety 3 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:18,040 training. Just this week I posted on social media that crates, if we're not careful, can 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:26,040 be a really abusive and unethical solution for dogs. Dogs who hate crates hate hate being 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:31,120 locked in a crate. Anyway, so I posted about that and a few people commented, OK, so you're 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:36,880 telling us what not to do, but why don't you tell us what to do instead? That's why in 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,439 this episode I'm going to revisit crating. I want to talk about the facts of crating 8 00:00:41,439 --> 00:00:46,840 because there are so many myths and I'll give you some tips on how to crate train your dog 9 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:53,040 safely and ethically. All right, let's dive in. 10 00:00:53,040 --> 00:01:00,400 Hello and welcome to the Be Right Back separation anxiety podcast. Hi, I'm Julie Naismith, dog 11 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:06,599 trainer, author and full on separation anxiety geek. I've helped thousands of dogs overcome 12 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:12,000 separation anxiety with my books, my online programs, my trainer certification and my 13 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:17,839 separation anxiety training app. And this podcast is all about sharing my tips and tricks 14 00:01:17,839 --> 00:01:21,760 to help you teach your dog how to be happy at home alone, too. 15 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:31,040 Let's start with the facts about crating because there are way too many myths out there. The 16 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:36,239 first thing I need you to know, so fact number one, is that crating doesn't fix separation 17 00:01:36,239 --> 00:01:41,160 anxiety. Despite what you'll hear, despite what many trainers who don't know separation 18 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:47,199 anxiety will tell you, crating doesn't fix separation anxiety. It used to be generally 19 00:01:47,239 --> 00:01:54,639 held, a generally held view that crating does stop a dog from panicking when left. Well, 20 00:01:54,639 --> 00:01:58,519 stop a dog panicking? I'm not sure if the people recommending crate training even really 21 00:01:58,519 --> 00:02:04,879 ever understood what was going on with a dog who was left. Those people, that is, who recommended 22 00:02:04,879 --> 00:02:10,479 crate training for fixing separation anxiety. Because the thing is, when a dog who has separation 23 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:15,600 anxiety is left alone, what's going on isn't bad behaviour. So if your dog chews when you 24 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:21,399 leave it, or if your dog chews, then maybe barks when you go, he's not being bad. What's 25 00:02:21,399 --> 00:02:29,080 happening is he's got a fear of being left. So he panics. And the behaviour that happens 26 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:34,880 as a result comes from how he feels. He's scared, and somehow trying to escape, or maybe 27 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:40,279 barking or whatever it is he does, is making him feel better. He's doing it, not because 28 00:02:40,279 --> 00:02:44,759 he's trying to be a bad dog, because he's not a bad dog. He's doing it because it's just a 29 00:02:44,759 --> 00:02:53,240 response to his fear. And on top of that fear of being left, we find that so many dogs who 30 00:02:53,240 --> 00:03:01,000 don't like being left alone have a phobia of the crate. So they especially hate it when 31 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:08,119 they are crated when they're left. Do we know why so many dogs who have separation anxiety 32 00:03:08,119 --> 00:03:13,720 also hate to be crated? We don't really know why. But my theory is that, if I had to guess, 33 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:20,000 I'd say the crate offers or the crate gives an extra sense of isolation to the dog. So 34 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,960 they're already scared of being alone, and now there's this extra sense of being alone. 35 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:29,720 And maybe, and I think this is often the case too, a dog who has separation anxiety has 36 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,039 been crated in the past, because we're all told to crate dogs with separation anxiety. 37 00:03:34,039 --> 00:03:38,119 And so he's come to associate the crate with scary alone time. So it's kind of a double 38 00:03:38,119 --> 00:03:42,479 whammy thing. But what are you going to do if you've got a dog who is chewing the walls 39 00:03:42,479 --> 00:03:45,919 or ripping up the floorboards? What are you going to do? Because a crate seems like the 40 00:03:45,919 --> 00:03:52,399 only answer, doesn't it? You've got to stop your dog from getting to the floorboards. 41 00:03:52,399 --> 00:03:58,039 You've got to stop him damaging himself. You've got to stop the destruction that's happening 42 00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:04,360 to your house. But you also want to stop the severe physical risk that's happening. Here's 43 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:10,839 the thing. Panicking dogs, and I've seen this way too often, will often damage themselves 44 00:04:10,839 --> 00:04:18,640 even worse, even further, trying to escape the crate, even so-called anxiety crates. 45 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:24,519 The memory of that panic of trying to escape is lasting. So what can happen is, not only 46 00:04:24,519 --> 00:04:30,600 have you caused or potentially created the risk of your dog harming itself in a crate, 47 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:37,440 but even if that doesn't happen, you've created a potential psychological impact. Your dog 48 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:43,559 has a memory of the panic that's really hard for it to lose. And by the way, massive side 49 00:04:43,559 --> 00:04:50,000 note, I am not anti-crate. No, no, no. No, I am not that person who goes on social, who 50 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:56,079 jumps on a podcast and says, crates are bad. I am not that person. If you came to my house, 51 00:04:56,079 --> 00:05:00,559 you would see, last count, I'm just counting it up in my head right now, I think we have 52 00:05:00,559 --> 00:05:04,799 about six crates in this house. And that doesn't include the crates that we've folded up and 53 00:05:04,799 --> 00:05:10,839 no longer use, because crates are invaluable tools. They are really helpful for containing 54 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:15,160 excitable dogs who try to knock over people when they come through the door. And they're 55 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:22,160 really handy for things like travel, for containing dogs while they're at the vet or the groomer. 56 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,920 There are alternatives when they're at the vet or the groomer, but sometimes it's helpful 57 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,040 to have a dog who loves going into his crate and doesn't mind staying there when they're 58 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:36,720 in that different environment. And of course, they can really help house training. And that's 59 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,839 why I also talk a lot about house training with and without crates, because I know that 60 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:45,359 so many of you want to house train with a crate. So I cover house training with and 61 00:05:45,359 --> 00:05:52,640 without crates in both of my books. But to an anxious dog, a crate is not the safe haven 62 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:58,640 that everybody says it is. To an anxious dog who hates a crate, closing the door is just 63 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:04,720 a form of punishment. I know it's awful, but that is what's going on. Just because 64 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:09,760 of the fact number two that I want to cover today, and it links back to what I just said 65 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:15,239 there about crates being a safe haven, because that view is really well established. It seems 66 00:06:15,239 --> 00:06:21,519 like that's unchallenged. Dogs like a safe haven. They love to den. But here's my second 67 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:27,559 crate fact. Just because dogs do seem to like to den, it doesn't mean to say that they will 68 00:06:27,559 --> 00:06:34,720 love the crate and see it as their safe space. Okay, yeah, so in all the wildlife documentaries, 69 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:41,160 we see wolves denning, we see them loving kind of huddling in a group in their den or 70 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:47,720 even on their own. So it seems natural to conclude that dogs like to den too. And I 71 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:53,359 don't think that is too much of a leap of knowledge or leap of faith. Dogs do seem to 72 00:06:53,359 --> 00:06:58,079 like kind of, you know, denning down for want of a better word, but they do seem to 73 00:06:58,079 --> 00:07:04,079 like snuggling in small spaces. Many of them do. They do seem to like seeking out those 74 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:10,959 little dark, cosy corners in the house. But what we can do with dogs who want to den is 75 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:17,079 we just keep the door open. So let's give our dogs a choice because there's a massive 76 00:07:17,079 --> 00:07:22,239 difference between denning down in an open crate because it's cosy and it's snuggly and 77 00:07:22,239 --> 00:07:30,119 they feel really, really comfortable in there and closing a door. Closing the door on the 78 00:07:30,119 --> 00:07:37,119 crate changes it from something that dogs love and that makes them feel safe to a prison. 79 00:07:37,119 --> 00:07:43,440 Dens don't have doors. Those wildlife documentaries we see of wolves, you don't see anybody coming 80 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:48,600 along and closing the door on them. What would happen if we did do that? More likely than 81 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:56,079 not they would panic. So dogs, if you want to create a safe space with a crate, do it. 82 00:07:56,079 --> 00:08:01,279 But make sure that your dog is free to enter and exit at will. That's if you've got a dog 83 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:06,440 who's crate-phobic. If you've taken the time to get your dog to love its crate, and it 84 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,399 can be done, then of course you can close the door because your dog's not going to panic 85 00:08:10,399 --> 00:08:15,079 when you close the door. But if you want to create a safe space for a dog who doesn't 86 00:08:15,079 --> 00:08:21,279 love a crate, just leave the door open and let them decide whether to come or go and 87 00:08:21,279 --> 00:08:27,040 whether to use that as their den. And how do you get a dog to love its crate? Well you're 88 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:32,520 going to use a fear-free crate training plan. It can take a long time with a crate-phobic 89 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:38,080 dog to get that dog to love its crate, but it can be done. I want to touch on dogs who 90 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:44,479 hate things like thunder and fireworks too because, again, you'll hear that the advice 91 00:08:44,479 --> 00:08:50,359 is to create a safe space with a crate. And again, it is true. They do often seem to like 92 00:08:50,359 --> 00:08:56,919 going into smaller spaces. I think a dog who is frightened of thunder or fireworks, it 93 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:02,320 feels less noisy, it feels further away from the scary stimulus when they're down in a 94 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:08,840 crate. And, and I certainly see this in my own dog who hates thunder and fireworks text, 95 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:14,359 he hates the light associated with those things. So for him, a dark crate is a great place 96 00:09:14,359 --> 00:09:20,159 to be. But I always leave the door open for him. He's a dog who loves his crate. I mean, 97 00:09:20,159 --> 00:09:24,640 loves, loves, loves his crate. And he's got no separation anxiety whatsoever. But when 98 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:30,520 he goes to his crate in a storm, I leave the door open. And the reason I do that, and by 99 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,159 the way, I'm sat by him when he does that, because we're doing lots of counter conditioning 100 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:40,320 as the noise continues on. But I want to make sure that he doesn't get so panicked that 101 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,000 he suddenly wants to escape. And now he feels trapped. So the door stays open and I stay 102 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:51,039 with him. I let him choose whether to go in and out of his crate. And that's how you make 103 00:09:51,039 --> 00:09:57,280 a crate safe for a dog who's in a panic. Just leave the door open and let them choose. 104 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:03,760 Okay, a third fact. And this is to clear up a big confusion about dogs who seem to be 105 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:09,080 okay in their crates, say, at night. But as soon as you try to leave and pop them in their 106 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:15,679 crate, they struggle. They hate it. And that's really confusing. If this is your dog, you 107 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:21,119 might be just scratching your head as to why he seems fine in his crate at night. But as 108 00:10:21,119 --> 00:10:28,119 soon, that minute that you try and crate him to leave, he just loses it. He freaks 109 00:10:28,119 --> 00:10:34,599 out. Well, just know this is a really common scenario. And for whatever reason, some dogs 110 00:10:34,599 --> 00:10:40,520 have decided that they're okay in their crate at a certain time, but not at another time. 111 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:47,880 It makes no sense to us, but it makes total sense to them. If getting your dog comfortable 112 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,039 in a crate when you leave, if you want to get your dog to be comfortable in a crate 113 00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:56,359 when you go out, then take comfort from the fact that if your dog can sleep through the 114 00:10:56,359 --> 00:11:01,880 night in a crate, he's showing you he can be okay in a crate. In that context, yes, 115 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,960 not during the day yet, not when you leave yet, but he has shown that he can be okay 116 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:13,359 in a crate. He just needs to learn that crate confidence that he's got overnight in other 117 00:11:14,359 --> 00:11:23,640 Okay, my fourth fact for you is about anxiety crates, so-called indestructible crates. And 118 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:28,919 what I want you to know is that these are not the answer. Anxiety crates aren't the 119 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:36,840 solution. If you Google separation anxiety, or you've popped it in the search box on Amazon, 120 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:43,479 you might have seen indestructible crates pop up because they are purported, they are 121 00:11:43,479 --> 00:11:49,440 marketed as a fix for separation anxiety. The idea being that they are constructed so 122 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:55,080 that the dog can't escape, and if the dog can't escape, then it will get over its separation 123 00:11:55,080 --> 00:12:00,799 anxiety, which makes me scratch my head. I'm even scratching my head now at that thought. 124 00:12:00,799 --> 00:12:05,840 But so many problems with this. For a start, it's not changing how your dog feels about 125 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:11,599 being alone. It might stop the destruction of your home. It might, if you're lucky, stop 126 00:12:11,599 --> 00:12:15,400 the destruction of your dog, destruction of your dog. What I mean by that is it might 127 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,719 stop your dog harming themselves, although some dogs still manage to harm themselves 128 00:12:19,719 --> 00:12:25,280 in these so-called indestructible, harm-free crates. And even if they're not physically 129 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:30,359 damaging themselves, even if they give up because the crate is just too tough for them, 130 00:12:30,359 --> 00:12:36,359 there's a psychological damage that we talked about earlier in this podcast. So locking 131 00:12:36,359 --> 00:12:43,440 a panicking dog in a cell-like crate isn't the fix to separation anxiety. No matter what 132 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:50,359 anybody says on the internet, it is not going to make your dog feel better about being home 133 00:12:50,359 --> 00:12:51,359 alone. 134 00:12:51,359 --> 00:12:56,359 Okay, fifth fact, you can train without, a house train without a crate. You absolutely 135 00:12:56,359 --> 00:13:04,280 can. So yes, it would be great if you could get your dog or your puppy to be really comfortable 136 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:10,039 in a crate, because it does help house training. Just confining a puppy to a smaller space 137 00:13:10,039 --> 00:13:16,840 speeds house training. But it's not necessary. It absolutely is a great tool, but it isn't 138 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:22,280 necessary. It's not the only answer to house training. And plenty, in plenty of countries 139 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:28,000 around the world, people don't use crates to house train. What do you have to do instead? 140 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,239 You have to be way more vigilant. And you definitely have to create a smaller space 141 00:13:31,239 --> 00:13:35,440 in your room or in your house, because being vigilant, you need to be able to keep your 142 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:38,760 eye on your puppy every single second. So you need to know where they are, which is 143 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,440 why a crate helps. But if you're not going to use a crate, you need to create a smaller 144 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,760 space in which you and your puppy hang out. So you do have to do some management like 145 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:54,000 that. But you can still house train. And in fact, I house trained all my dogs without 146 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:59,080 crates. And I probably would do it again, because I don't find it difficult. It's a 147 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,960 bit more laborious. You do have to be on your guard. But it's doable. And why wouldn't I 148 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,880 use a crate? For no other reason than actually, I like hanging out with my dogs when they 149 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:14,280 were puppies. So they were kind of always hanging out with us anyway. My dog Tex absolutely 150 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:19,799 loves his crates. Percy's behind in a crate now. It took me a long time though to do that. 151 00:14:19,799 --> 00:14:25,799 And India can't get enough of being in her crate. But if I did it all over again, I would 152 00:14:25,799 --> 00:14:29,719 not worry for a minute about having to crate them for house training. 153 00:14:29,719 --> 00:14:36,039 Okay, another fact for you, you don't have to crate your puppy to prevent destruction. 154 00:14:36,039 --> 00:14:42,359 Because I know that with your puppy or your dog, who's stressed and destroying when you 155 00:14:42,359 --> 00:14:49,000 go out, it just seems like the only way to stop that is to crate, right? It makes sense. 156 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,919 If you put them in the crate, you're going to stop the chewing and the destroying and 157 00:14:52,919 --> 00:15:00,119 the soiling. But you've got to remember that the reason that your dog is destroying, unless 158 00:15:00,119 --> 00:15:05,880 it's kind of normal puppy getting up to find the misty stuff. But if it's a dog who's really 159 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,960 anxious or a puppy that's really anxious about being left, and they're destroying as a result 160 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:17,320 of that, the minute you stop the anxiety, that behaviour stops. It can seem counterintuitive, 161 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,960 we see the destruction, we want to crate, it seems obvious, but actually the crate then 162 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:27,479 makes it worse. So we let the puppy or the dog out of the crate, despite the fact that 163 00:15:27,479 --> 00:15:34,520 they destroy the house, but stop the emotion that drives that behaviour. And you stop the 164 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,719 outcome, you stop the destruction. And if you're going to do that, you're going to work 165 00:15:39,719 --> 00:15:44,039 on home alone training, where you're going to suspend absences and gradually get your 166 00:15:44,039 --> 00:15:50,840 dog used to being without you when you go out. And that changing emotion is what prevents 167 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:56,119 that drive to destroy stuff. And by the way, if you're listening to this and thinking, 168 00:15:56,119 --> 00:15:59,239 well, my dog doesn't destroy when I'm gone, so maybe that means I haven't got separation 169 00:15:59,239 --> 00:16:05,559 anxiety. Not all dogs by any means, not all dogs with separation anxiety destroy. They're 170 00:16:05,559 --> 00:16:09,640 all kind of unique, and they all do different things when they're upset. Destruction is 171 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,960 just what some dogs with separation anxiety do. Other dogs with separation anxiety do 172 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,440 different things. Remember that when you do separation anxiety training, when you do those 173 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,799 safe departures, you're only going out for an amount of time that your dog can handle. 174 00:16:24,679 --> 00:16:28,919 You're not going out long enough to cause him to panic and freak and so he won't get 175 00:16:28,919 --> 00:16:34,200 up to the previous destructive behaviours that he showed when he was panicking and freaking out. 176 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:39,880 Plus, you'll be watching him like a hawk. So you don't have to worry. Once you start 177 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,520 the separation anxiety training, you can stop worrying about the chewing and the destroying, 178 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,440 and then hopefully that helps you feel more comfortable not crating. 179 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:54,440 And even if you're still a little bit anxious, and I kind of get that, even if you think 180 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,000 watching them the whole time and coming back as soon as you think there's anything 181 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,599 going to happen, even if that doesn't give you enough comfort, then you can always create a 182 00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:10,119 safe space in a room or part of your house that's puppy-proof, that's dog-proof. So 183 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:16,199 you use extended exercise pens, you block off parts of the furniture or the door or 184 00:17:16,199 --> 00:17:21,400 whatever it is that you don't want him to get into. It's much easier to protect stuff 185 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:28,599 than to lock your panicking dog in. All right. And then finally, my final, final, final fact 186 00:17:28,599 --> 00:17:34,599 on crates is you can still do separation anxiety training in a crate. All right. So I could have 187 00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:39,719 just skipped all the previous facts and said, yeah, you can still do separation anxiety training in 188 00:17:39,719 --> 00:17:47,160 a crate. It's just a lot more work. So that's why I left this fact to last. It's always my preference 189 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:53,000 to get a panicky dog out of a crate to see how the training goes with the dog out of the crate 190 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,119 than to do training in the crate, than to do separation anxiety training that is in a crate. 191 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:05,239 It just takes longer, especially for a dog who is already having issues with the crate. Not only 192 00:18:05,239 --> 00:18:10,040 then do we have to help him feel better about alone time, but we've got to help him feel better 193 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:15,239 about the crate as well. So it's not that you can't do it. I'm just all for efficiency and 194 00:18:15,239 --> 00:18:20,119 making your life as easy as possible because I want you to get your dog over separation anxiety 195 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:26,280 as quickly as you can. And adding the crate into the mix, especially with a dog who's crate phobic, 196 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:31,880 it's just going to take more time. But if you do want to do it, what you need to do 197 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:40,119 is get your puppy or your dog to love its crate first. And then what you can do is work on the 198 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,199 home alone training. How do you get a puppy or a dog to love its crate? Well, the headline is you 199 00:18:44,199 --> 00:18:48,599 go in really short steps. It's very similar to separation anxiety training for that. But we do 200 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:54,760 use food for crate training. We create an amazing association with the crate, build up duration 201 00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:00,359 without the door closed, then with the door closed until we can get a nice amount of duration 202 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:05,319 with your puppy or dog in the crate, door closed, you in the house, but not visible. 203 00:19:05,319 --> 00:19:10,359 And once you get to that stage, then you know you're ready to start departure training 204 00:19:10,439 --> 00:19:16,680 with your dog in a crate. Okay, I will talk about crates again. I just know I will. 205 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,640 But I hope this episode has helped clear up some crate confusion. And if you still have 206 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,439 questions on crates, remember, you can always pop into my free Facebook groups and ask there. 207 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,280 And you can dig out copies of my books. You can find them both on Amazon. Be right back the 208 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:37,560 original and be right back the puppy version. Both go into crate training in some detail. 209 00:19:38,439 --> 00:19:43,079 That's it from me for this episode, but keep training and good luck out there. 210 00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:50,599 Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Be Right Back Separation Anxiety podcast. 211 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,920 If you want to find out more about how I can help you further, head over to julienasmith.com. 212 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,199 Meanwhile, if you enjoyed listening today, I would love it if you would head over 213 00:20:02,199 --> 00:20:06,680 to wherever you listen to your podcast and consider rating my show. 214 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:16,040 Thanks so much. Good luck with that training and bye for now.