How can we make adoption successful for rescue dogs with separation anxiety?
Well, that's what we're looking at in this episode, and I'm delighted that I got to
speak to Jenny Fassman and Amanda Dwyer of the Humane Alliance of Rescue Trainers, also
known as HART.
It's a fabulous discussion all about helping guardians to make a success of adoption when
they've adopted a dog who can't be left.
Tune in to find out more.
Hello, and welcome to the Be Right Back Separation Anxiety Podcast.
Hi, I'm Julie Naismith, dog trainer, author, and full-on separation anxiety geek.
I've helped thousands of dogs overcome separation anxiety with my books, my online programs,
my trainer certification, and my separation anxiety training app.
And this podcast, it's all about sharing my tips and tricks to help you teach your
dog how to be happy at home alone too.
Okay, so I am so excited to get to speak to Amanda and Jenny today.
They are both from the Humane Alliance of Rescue Trainers, and we're going to talk a
lot about HART, as I will refer to them during this podcast.
It's essentially, you're a nonprofit organization, right, and you help animal trainers and behavior
consultants connect with people who have dogs who are adopting dogs.
So we're going to talk about that whole process shortly because it is, what you do is wonderful
and I know people are going to be fascinated about it.
Obviously, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you today is because separation
anxiety, as we know, is often a big driver of relinquishment.
And we also know that it can be a trigger for development of separation anxiety.
So before we dive in and talk more about what you do specifically, let's talk a bit
about that.
Maybe Amanda, I might pick on you first because I know that separation anxiety is definitely
your thing, but what do you see as some of the biggest challenges for the dogs who have
separation anxiety, either that's how they ended up there in a rescue or shelter or they
develop it?
What do you think the biggest challenges for these dogs are?
When we're talking about dogs who are currently in the shelter and rescue system, who have
not been adopted yet, there's two sort of buckets that I think of in terms of the challenges
for those dogs who are presenting with separation-related behaviors.
One is if they're in a kennel-type shelter or a municipal shelter, that's going to be
a really different type of experience because it's so hard, as everyone would probably guess,
to prevent them from being left alone.
They are likely going to have to face long stretches of time where they're in the kennel
by themselves.
It doesn't mean that there's nothing that can be done.
I actually worked with Milana and some of the CSATs on getting together a document to
help support rescue dogs who are in that sort of situation.
So I'm not sure if it's appropriate to talk about it here, but there are steps that those
shelters can do and we talk about this with our rescues.
But anything that can be done to minimize the amount of time that the dog is left alone
is fantastic.
Yeah, and when you're talking about a kennel setup, just to describe that to people, and
that can be different things, but it's typically kind of a cage.
It might be, some have more, some places even call them condos, don't they?
But it's an isolated spot.
They may be sometimes with a housemate, potentially, but they are pretty, they're isolated from
people, that's the main thing, for the most part, for most of the time, yeah.
And generally during, when business hours are over, the staff walk up, they go home,
that sort of situation.
So in foster-style rescues, it can be a very different experience, and certainly if I could
wave a magical wand, I'd prefer a dog with person-related behaviors to be in a foster
setting because then you can control the amount of time that it is exposed to being alone,
you can start on desensitization training, you can really get them better support.
Having worked in that shelter environment, one of the things that I always say to people,
and maybe this is what you're about to talk about, is we can find volunteers to be involved
with things like dog walk, so instead, why don't we think about dog time?
So yes, a dog walk is great, but also can we think about some rotational stuff where
people can be involved, even just sitting, even just working on a laptop, maybe finding
space in the office for these dogs to at least have a little bit of a break so it's not constant
constant in a kennel with just an hour out for a walk a day if they're lucky.
And so yeah, what other things have you done for dogs in a traditional kind of kennel environment?
Well, if the rescue can partner with daycare, sometimes that would be wonderful, or going
home for overnights with staff members can be fantastic.
So really just using a little creativity to think about how can we get this dog to have
company for the longest amount of time that we can possibly get it.
We're often dealing with less ideal situations, but that doesn't mean that you can't kind
of finagle things to prevent the dog from being exposed to alone time.
I think that's a really important point, because just because we can't make it perfect.
So we always talk about when we start working with dogs with separation anxiety, we want
them to have a setup where they aren't alone, right?
So we encourage guardians to find ways to suspend absences.
But in this situation, 24 hours, that's going to be a huge challenge, totally overambitious
in most situations.
But I love the point you make about what if we can just make it less?
What instead of it being 20 hours on their own, it's now 18 hours because we found another
couple of hours where they can go to daycare or they can hang out with people.
So I think that's a really important point you make.
Let's try and do something, even if it's not everything.
Right.
Exactly.
Jenny, do you have things to add to that?
I do.
I just had a thought that one of the, although separation anxiety or separation related problem
behaviors can be very challenging, you know, in the sense that the dog cannot be left alone.
One advantage is that the trigger in this case, being left alone, is completely controllable.
So if a dog is reactive to other dogs on leash, and that's why they're in the shelter, and
you know, every potential adopter thinks that they can't take the dog for a walk anywhere
that they're going to see other dogs or that that's one of the most important, helpful
parts of helping the dog learn to behave differently while leashed around other dogs.
That's a really unpredictable and, you know, sometimes difficult thing to avoid where like
because we can't predict when other dogs are going to appear.
But for being left alone, that's something that we can, we can always know when it might
happen.
Well, not always.
Yeah.
It's, you know, something that's much more, much more predictable.
So even though it can be very challenging for the right person or the right foster home
even, it can be really easy to manage that aspect of it where some other behaviors are
much more difficult to manage.
Oh, you're singing to the choir because Amanda will apparently say that.
And I always, I love hearing it from you as well, Jenny, because I always think, am I
just being too Pollyanna?
Am I being too positive about this?
But one of the things, as you point out, the challenge with working with a dog with fear
is trying to keep it away from the thing that scares it.
And most dogs with fears, we're dealing with things that are very unpredictable.
Like you say, you know, the dog on the other side of the street or the strange person coming
down the pathway, the driveway, and, you know, guardians can go out of their way to control
the environment.
And then there'll be that one moment, won't there, won't there, where it'd be, they'll
be walking on a quiet street and it's dark and it's nine o'clock and then boom, from
nowhere that strange person comes around the corner when, you know, it's like, oh my goodness.
And so it's hard to control the scary stimulus.
But yeah, it is, once people have adopted these dogs and they are in a groove and they're
getting their head around the fact that you can suspend absences, then they are controlling
their dog's fear, which is priceless when we're trying to desensitize, right?
Absolutely.
It's just good to hear it from you because I do say it a lot.
Am I just like loopy about this?
Come on, be real.
I'm a little bit of a Pollyanna too.
But also because we know and we work with dogs who have all those other types of fears
where you just, you know, when you hear of those incidents, your heart thinks, you think,
oh, poor people, poor dog, they didn't see that coming.
And yeah, it's predictable, isn't it?
Usually people can predict when they're going to be around for their dog.
It's a big difference.
So yeah, just going back to the shelter environment then.
But maybe let's talk about foster, because Amanda, you were saying you'd much rather
see these dogs in a foster environment.
And I agree with you.
So what's beneficial about a foster environment for these dogs?
Certainly, it's likely that there's less time that they're faced with being alone.
That's the hope that if the dog goes home with a foster and the foster is aware that
the dog has separation anxiety or is going through something that looks similar, there's
some thought that just the upheaval of being rehomed can bring upon these symptoms.
So yeah, just having them in an environment where someone can control the amount of time
that they are exposed to being left alone, maybe start on the desensitization process.
Initially, when we started working with these sort of cases with heart, we did not pair
trainers with dogs who were in foster because we felt that the training wouldn't go with
the dog to its eventual adopter.
But what's been sort of interesting and surprising is a lot of our trainers and a lot of our
rescues have wanted to start the process immediately, both to show that something is
being done for the dog and that the dog can show progress in the time that they're in
the foster's care, which is kind of, you know, it makes sense.
So you can give a potential adopter information of, yeah, the dog has separation anxiety,
but you can manage this, you can treat this, it can eventually be able to tolerate alone
time.
Yeah.
So it's starting that learning.
And I'm with you.
So I think if there's appetite and energy, fosters are willing to do it, or, you know,
some part of the team is willing to get involved with it, it can't harm and it may well help.
It can't harm if we do it right, and we will do it right.
And then maybe that transference of learning that, oh, OK, right, we're doing that leaving
thing again.
So, you know, it's a bit like when guardians move house, you know, they'll often say, should
I just stop training now because we're about to move house?
Well, you probably want to focus on moving house because that's a really big deal.
But if you've got time, then I would keep continuing while you've got the energy and
enthusiasm to do it, because you're not going to, the worst case is you've done training
that had no effect, but it might.
So, you know, while you while you can, yeah, give it a go.
Right.
So, Amanda, you just started to touch on the process that you use for matching adopters,
matching adopters with trainers and behaviour consultants.
So let's let's now dive into that.
So tell me a bit more about the Humane Alliance of Rescue Trainers.
How did you get started?
What do you do?
What are you all about?
Yeah, I'm going to pass this off quickly to Jenny, because Jenny runs case management
and I think she's going to do a better job, explain the nuts and bolts.
But actually, you know, Jenny, I want you to start this because you also have some great
history on how HART starts.
So take it away.
OK, so HART began with an idea.
So I was in the University of Washington Applied Animal Behaviour Certificate Program a few
years ago.
Time is a construct.
And two of the other students in the program, Emily Triniti and Tracy Weber and I, we all
kind of around the same time came up with the idea of an organization that could provide
free behaviour help for fostered and newly adopted animals in order to prevent them from
being returned to shelters and rescues.
And it must have been, you know, some part of the curriculum that had us all coming up
with this thought at the same time.
And one of us brought it up during a class lecture, you know, like, hey, what about this
idea?
Has anyone ever tried this?
And the person that was presenting the lecture actually was like, oh, yeah, that's been tried.
It will never work.
So we were like, challenge accepted.
Let me just stop you there.
Did you say that you came up with it collectively or you all sort of, the three of you, had
the idea and then chatted and then realized you all had the same idea?
Yes, I think someone presented, someone, you know, kind of asked the question during a
lecture and then one of the other, you know, one of the other students was like, hey, I
was thinking the same thing.
If you want to do something like that, I would love to be a part of it.
And then one of the others, you know, there ended up being three of us, I think initially
we were like, yeah, let's make this happen.
And yeah, and so fast forward a couple of years later, I think it's probably been three
or four years now since we had the first conversation about this.
And so now we have an organization that connects families through foster or through shelter
and rescue to qualified, screened, humane trainers to provide free behavior support.
And so the way it works is say, you know, someone has just adopted a dog, they bring
the dog home and they learn that the dog has separation anxiety and they're like, oh
my gosh, I have no idea what to do.
I've looked online and seen that it's really expensive to get help with separation anxiety
and, but I really love this dog.
So they contact the, the rescue organization and the rescue organization says, yes, we
have some people who can help you at no cost.
And they fill out an application if they've never worked with us before.
So we also pretty carefully screen the rescues and shelters that we work with.
And then once we've decided that this is a case we can support that kind of falls within
our parameters, we send a request out in the case of separation anxiety isolation, just
for us, we have a specific group of trainers who are qualified to work in that area.
So we send a request out to those trainers and one of the trainers would say, yeah, I'd
like to work with this family and we put them in touch and depending on, so I don't want
to take too much of the conversation up, but we also, you know, are very supportive of
our trainers and we want to help prevent burnout.
So for most behavior cases, we ask that the trainers provide up to four free sessions
for the family.
And then if they, if the family wants to continue to work with the trainer beyond that, then
they, you know, work through the trainer's business to arrange something.
But in the case of separation anxiety and isolation distress, since we know that those
cases are handled quite differently, we leave it up to each individual trainer, how they
would like to contribute their time and resources to help get the family on the right track.
Yeah, nice.
And so basically it means that instead of this bewilderment and overwhelm and, you know,
Dr. Google and just feeling like I've adopted a dog who they adore, but wait a minute, how
can I, you know, how can I have, we have this dog in our lives that we can never leave?
All of a sudden there's light, there's, there's possibility for them.
They've got this dog that they love, they're really happy that they've adopted, but now
they can get the help they need.
Whereas maybe 10 years ago, that could have been a dog that was returned because that's
a quite common reason for returning a dog, isn't it?
I just wanted, there was something you said as well about, just wanted to explore.
So did you start off with kind of post-adoption help?
Because you do some pre-adoption help now as well, don't you?
Yeah, we actually deal primarily with dogs in foster and recently adopted dogs.
Yeah.
Would you say that's correct, Jenny?
Yes.
Yeah, so most of our requests are coming in through shelters and rescues, and we do not
take any requests directly from the public.
So HART does work with dogs that have behaviour challenges that run the entire gamut, not
simply separation anxiety.
Yeah, and I suppose what I was guessing at was that it's, so people might have already
have the dog and then reach back to their, the organisation that they got the dog from
and say, you know, this is developed and so on, and then that might be the connection.
So at that point, they might get connected to you.
But you're also working with dogs before they get to their forever home, because we
talked about how, you know, there are some trainers working with dogs in a foster setup
before the forever home is found.
So you're kind of coming at it from, you know, both of those angles.
Correct, correct.
And many of the dogs who are in foster, they are exhibiting jumpiness and the mouthiness
that often comes along with dogs that have gone through upheaval.
And HART trainers can help make these dogs more desirable adoption candidates.
A lot of these behaviours can be resolved quite simply if you just simply get knowledgeable
people connected with them.
So one of the wonderful, unexpected offshoots that was provided to us was that, you know,
trainers have this amazing ability to work remotely now.
So we've been able to support shelters in very remote locations who often don't have
local options.
Yeah.
Well, if they did, they were just so limited that you would rather they didn't do any
training with them than do.
Oh, yes, I get it.
Yeah, I get it.
And I live in a small town, so I kind of get that as well.
And so how do you find organisations to work with?
Do they find you?
Do you find them?
Initially, we did a lot of outreach since we were the new kids on the block.
Now they tend to be finding us.
Yeah, I bet they do.
But, you know, we have a website and a small social media presence, and that tends to get
us found by people who are looking for help.
I'm really interested in, if you don't mind sharing, do you have a selection process?
Do you say, I don't know, that organisation, we can't work with them because...
Because I'm sure now, like you say, you're in demand.
So before you were reaching out, you were probably getting people saying, who are you?
But now everybody knows about you.
Do you have to be picky or can you take on organisations regardless?
That's an excellent question, Julie and Jayne.
I'm hoping you're going to support me on this.
Neither of us are on the outreach team.
Right.
OK, sorry.
No, it's absolutely OK.
So when a shelter and rescue contacts us, we do do an amount of screening and mostly
we're trying to ensure that they're acting responsibly and within the sort of realm of
best practices.
Shelters are going to be wildly different from each other, but we're just, we're looking
for, you know, responsible amounts of numbers and quality care to the animals.
Jenny, do you have anything to add to that?
No, I think that's, I think you explained that pretty, pretty well.
Yeah, we just, we want to work with organisations whose philosophy aligns with ours and, you
know, and with the trainers.
We don't want to put our trainers in situations where they feel, I don't know, awkward about
the practices of a shelter rescue.
Yeah, I get it.
That makes sense.
And also because if the outreach is to the shelter or rescue, they are then, they then
make the decision about the guardians that come to you.
Is that right?
So you're not, you're not filtering, you're not assessing the guardians.
So the organisations would do that.
Correct.
Right.
So even more important to get that working relationship right, to work with the right
organisations, because they're ultimately picking the clients who are going to work
with your trainers.
Yeah, interesting.
In terms of, I think we sort of, I was wondering how clients find you, how adopters find you,
but it's through the organisation, isn't it?
So if people are really keen and listening to this, then don't contact HAARP, because
the way it works is that they would, you know, they should go back to their organisation,
where they adopted from, and have that conversation and see if they work with you.
That's the right way around, isn't it?
Correct.
Yes, if someone listening has adopted their dog within the past five months and are struggling,
reach out to your shelter or rescue and let them know about us and they can submit a request
on your behalf.
Oh, so they can do it that way, even if that rescue or shelter isn't already working with
you.
I'm now worried that, you know, anybody listening to this is going to be doing that,
but then that's okay, it's nice having to have, hopefully.
They would first fill out a request to work with us, the shelter or rescue, and then once
we've approved them, then they could submit a behaviour request.
Sometimes it happens the other way around, a shelter or rescue will submit a request
and we'll say, you know, okay, let's set this aside for just a moment and go through
the kind of partnering process.
And once that's complete, then we can, but it doesn't take very long, usually.
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
And from a guardian perspective, it's within that first five months.
And I think we would all, all three of us say, if you've just adopted a dog and you're
struggling, you definitely go back and talk to the organisation you adopted from, because
most of them have really good policies on that, don't they?
And they would want to know if you're struggling with your newly adopted dog.
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.
Ask for help early, please.
Yeah, struggle on your own, absolutely not.
Now, obviously you work across, your trainers work in, you mentioned in a variety of
problem behaviours, so it's not just separation anxiety.
So how do you find trainers and how do trainers find you?
We have been so blessed with this.
So we will put out some social media posts and various Facebook groups.
And there's been a lot of interest.
And I think and I hope it's because we put a lot of effort into making sure everybody
is only donating a certain fixed amount of time.
And then once you've done your cases for the year, you don't have to take any more.
I think many trainers love to volunteer for shelters and rescues.
I have a background with one, but it can drain you.
And trainers have to take care of themselves.
We have to get proper rest.
We have to recharge.
We can't, we have, we can get so emotionally drained because we love the animals that we
work with and we often, we love the people too.
So having clear guidelines, I think, makes lots of trainers find volunteering for HART
very interesting.
And that's what I hear over and over.
Absolutely.
And the thing that I love is, I agree with you, I think we're all in this because we
want to make the world a better place for dogs.
And that does mean we get drawn to working in a shelter and rescue environment.
And it can be, it can be really, really draining.
And, and, and yet we, and then we often end up feeling guilty about that.
Like, you know, why can't I put more hours into this?
Why can't I just resolve this one case?
You know, I'm going to keep working on it.
I'm going to keep working on it.
And then I always try and remind myself and others that when you say yes to something,
you always have, you always say no to something else.
And that no might be self-care.
And when that self-care goes, then you're no help to anybody, any person or any dog.
So I love the structure, really love the structure you've put together, because there's
a big difference between working for free and working for no fee.
And that might sound really ickley kind of commercial, which is like, as dog trainers,
we all go, oh, no, don't talk about money, don't talk about fees.
But the structure that you give trainers, the way I see that, the way they work when
they're with you is, it's like they're in, you know, it's like they've got a paying client.
It's the same structure.
It's the same professionalism.
And they have boundaries.
And I, you know, because of the way you describe, you set the limit on how many of these they
can do.
And it helps them set boundaries, which is so important, because I've worked for free
in the past.
And I know how it goes.
You don't want to stop because you started working for free and you want the dog to be
OK, so you keep going.
But then what about all the other dogs that you could help?
And then you feel guilty because you're helping that client and not the others.
So the structure you provide and the way you've done it, it's, I tell you what, back
to that lecture four or five years ago, I am so glad you took on that challenge because
you've developed something wonderful and beautiful and you've made such a difference.
So I'm so glad that you went, no, we're going to do this.
Thanks, I'm so am I.
Yes.
And do you see that it is just going to grow, do you think?
I hope so.
It feels that way.
Yeah.
When I started on, because I was not in that class, I knew some of the people who were
in it and COVID hit and a lot of brilliant people were bored.
So that's really how our project launched.
But yeah, I just recognized that it was a great idea and I had worked on collaborative
projects before and I always love working in collaborative projects.
But I saw that this one had quite a bit of potential and I feel like, I'm biased, obviously,
but I feel like we are growing in a really quite beautiful way.
Well, I just want to go back to that lecture because I almost feel like I was sat in the
back row going, oh, wow.
Yeah.
Oh, that's so clever.
Because that response, oh, yes, it had been tried before and it didn't work.
But the more that you dive, that someone like me dives into what you do and the more that
other people look at what you do and how you do it, it seems to me quite obvious why
you've made it work where previous models perhaps fell down.
And I think it is that structure and it is that expectation management and the boundary
setting and the rigor.
And in doing that, you're actually helping more dogs, not fewer, because of the structure
that you bring to it.
So I can see why there was this view, oh, no, we tried that and it didn't work.
But they didn't try it like you're doing it, in my opinion.
I don't think, you know, do you feel like it's pretty unique?
I feel like it is.
I do.
And I also think, you know, one of the reasons probably this was such a good time for Heart
to be successful is with the expansion of what we view as possible to do virtually.
So Heart would not work, at least not as well, if we were trying to meet with all these people
in person.
So most of what we do is done virtually.
We do have some trainers who are, you know, geographically co-located with the people
that we end up working with, people and dogs, but and cats.
I know, I meant to say and cats.
And cats.
But, you know, the expansion of what's seen as possible, I mean, right after our talk
today, I have a virtual session with a Heart client.
So it wouldn't be possible.
And, you know, 10 years ago, we couldn't have done this.
Yeah, yeah.
And obviously, we're talking about something that we can't really talk about yet, but hopefully
something that we'll be able to tell people about in a bit more detail soon.
But a virtual model of helping people that you wouldn't imagine we could have done 10
years ago.
So it has really opened up a lot of possibilities, hasn't it?
Being able to work virtually.
Yes, yeah.
And actually on that, I was just wondering, so you said that made a difference.
So when you do get people to do in person, when trainers do work in person, what are
the limitations?
What different challenges do you see there?
If we were to try to make Heart in person only, every case would be limited to a much
smaller pool of trainers.
Of course, yeah.
So and that would be the big hurdle.
I have had two cases that I did in person, and both of them involved quite a bit of travel.
Because even though, yes, I was co-located, it was while I was in the Seattle area, but
they weren't necessarily in my neighborhood.
So if you're hoping to expand the pool of trainers and expand the access, allowing these
cases to go out and be handled by a trainer who lives nowhere close to the area is far
more efficient.
It's a much greater chance.
And it's easier to schedule, just to be honest.
You know, yeah.
It's easier to schedule.
And then also, if people aren't working for a fee, but if they're in a car and they're
filling up on gas, and then they get stuck in traffic, that's a cost.
So it keeps it really fair as well for trainers that there aren't any hidden costs to doing
this free thing.
Correct.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, you know, I just think that you're game changers.
You've taken an idea that people didn't think could work.
You've disrupted it.
You've taken on the challenge.
And I'm so, I am.
I'm just so in awe of what you've done and so thrilled that you're seeing the impact
that you're making.
Because I just, from my perspective, I just no doubt that this is just going to continue
to grow and grow.
And I just wanted to finish off.
I think we've sort of covered this.
But just a reminder, if people are listening to this, so let's start with adopters.
If adopters are listening and thinking, wow, yeah, I've got one of those dogs, been with
me two months, whether it's separation anxiety or something else, you know, there's a, I
just can't handle this.
What should they be doing?
In general?
In general.
Sorry, yeah, very general.
I don't know how many hours we've got.
I'm sure the dogs haven't qualified it.
They're listening to this thinking, wow, this sounds like a fantastic organisation.
So if they've adopted their companion animal within the past five months and they feel
that additional behaviour support is something that they are desperately in need of, reach
out to the shelter and rescue that they got the dog from and let them know about the Humane
Alliance Rescue Trainers.
Yes, which we are linking to in the podcast show notes and will be linking to when we
share this on social.
So people will be able to find that link that they can then take along to their organisation.
And if it's somebody at an organisation listening, thinking, wow, that sounds cool.
I know we touched on it earlier in the podcast, but just a reminder about what they can do.
Yes.
So on our website, there is a page that will contact us and they can just fill out the
application.
Same for trainers, if there's a trainer listening and wants to contact us, they can go to our
website and there is a button to join to be a volunteer trainer.
Fantastic.
Fabulous.
Well, Jenny and Amanda, thank you so much for giving away your time today to talk about
this.
Such a brilliant idea.
I'm thrilled that I got to talk to you about it.
And I just can't wait to see HART continuing to grow and grow because I can only see good
things and amazing things in the future for you.
Thank you.
Yes, thank you so much.
It's been my pleasure.
Thank you so much.
Just one thing I wanted to add, because I don't think we mentioned that we do sometimes
work with dogs that are still in the shelter environment.
Correct.
I'm not sure we mentioned that.
So I just wanted to add that in there.
And yeah, thank you so much for letting us talk with you today.
This has been great.
Well, that's a really important point, actually.
Yeah.
And so if an organisation is listening, thinking, oh, right, well, we've got it.
Yeah, so you can go right back to the dog, not even being potentially fostered.
So yes.
OK, thank you.
I'm glad you added that, Jenny.
All right.
Thank you both so much.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Be Right Back Separation Anxiety podcast.
If you want to find out more about how I can help you further, head over to julienaysmith.com.
Meanwhile, if you enjoyed listening today, I would love it if you would head over
to wherever you listen to your podcasts and consider rating my show.
Thanks so much.
Good luck with that training and bye for now.