Pain In Dogs—Why It's An Even Bigger Deal Than We Think, But Often So Easy To Miss

Well hey there and welcome to another episode of the Fixing Separation Anxiety Podcast. I'm your

host Julie Naismith and in this episode I am just so thrilled to be able to share an interview I did

with another Julie, Julie McKenna Miller. Julie is a physiotherapist, a canine physical therapist

and she is an expert in all things orthopedic when it comes to dogs. She's spilling the beans

on all sorts of hot topics like what do we do with separation anxiety dogs when they have to

go on crate rest? Is playing ball really bad for our dogs? What's the scoop on hip dysplasia?

And how can we spot the signs of pain in our dogs when they are so keen to hide it from us?

You are going to love this episode every bit as much as I loved recording it.

Welcome to the Fixing Separation Anxiety Podcast

where it's all about healing your dog, regaining your freedom and getting your life back on track.

And now here's your host Julie Naismith.

We are so lucky to have Julie with us here today. I'm going to let Julie tell you her story.

So I'm Julie McKenna Miller and I'm a physical therapist. I'm originally trained to be a human

physical therapist but even while I was in PT school, my golden retriever Tucker at the time

was diagnosed with really severe hip dysplasia and I thought, oh my gosh, my dog's going to need a

replacement. What do I do? And so I started researching the field of canine physical therapy,

fell in love with it and 20 years later it's still my biggest passion. So I love to help people

with getting their dogs into optimal function and detecting pain where they may otherwise not know

that there's pain. And really I've worked the full spectrum from, well, two different vet schools and

my own private practice for years where I've treated probably every orthopedic condition

that there is in dogs as well as neurological cases and hundreds of dogs that have been

paralyzed either from FCE which is like a stroke to the spinal cord or disc herniation and then

they require immediate surgery and a ton of physical therapy afterwards. So it's been a great

joy helping those dogs get back to walking again and helping the orthopedic dogs just be their

absolute best. So I have become a bit of a detective when it comes to looking for pain

and sore spots and tender points and tightness and I think just by nature that's how physical

therapists are. And so I love to help dog parents learn how to find these areas in their dogs and

help them feel their best. You work quite closely then with like a veterinarian team, so you partner

with them on the different cases that you're on? Yes, so for much of my practice I was actually

working at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine in Massachusetts and so I was working

with a bunch of vets and a specialist and then when I moved down to Knoxville, Tennessee, I also

spent some time working at the University of Tennessee Vet School. And then I've had my private

practice outside and yes, when I need to consult with the vets I certainly do. So yeah, it's been,

I've had years and years where I'm working really, really closely with them and since moving my

business more toward online, I have less contact with the vets. But I still, if there's a case I'm

working on with a client no matter where they are in the world and I need that vet input, then

absolutely we will get on the phone with the vet. Yeah, yeah, cool. So it's a team, it takes a team.

We find that as well with separation anxiety. It takes a village, it takes a team.

So yeah, and it's a great relationship. I say to everybody, make sure that you have a great

relationship with your dog's medical team, whoever that is, whether it's their physical therapist or

their vet, because sometimes it is about more than just their anxiety of being home alone.

So let me dive into some, I've got so many questions that I want to get through.

The thing that I'm really fascinated and I think piqued everybody's interest is the work you do

in helping owners to get really good at spotting the signs of pain that are so subtle,

we may have missed them in the past. Can you talk us through all of that? Because

you do some brilliant stuff with the subtle signs of pain. Yeah.

I can tell you a little bit of an embarrassing, it feels embarrassing to me, story about this,

which if you've picked up the free guide, which we will talk about on my website and already read it,

it's detecting subtle signs of pain long before your dog will ever tell you.

I talk about this in there, but the story goes that I have this dog named Happy,

and she's a Border Collie, I think Newfie mix, but she's the size of a Golden Retriever.

And I adopted her when she was about one and a half. And it wasn't until she was five years old

and I had a Golden Retriever puppy that was a boy and became big enough to jump on her back end,

that I started figuring out something was wrong with her. So she would say to me,

though she would sit down, it was clear she didn't like it. She's one of the most stoic

dogs I have ever come across. But I didn't know this at the time. And so all my dogs have kind of,

in addition to my clients, have just taught me so much, but my own personal dog. So here,

here it is, I'm trained to see pain, and to pick up gait deviations. And I mean,

this is my specialty. And even with my own dog, I did not see it. So when Bear started jumping on

Happy's back end, she would sit down and then eventually she started whining. Like, ding, ding,

ding. Okay, that's one of our really obvious signs of pain that we all know about limping,

holding a leg up, holding the headway down, crying out, screaming, you know, those are the obvious

ones. And it took me with a trained eye for this to have her whimper before I picked up on it.

Now, at the time, I was working at the University of Tennessee Vet School. I took her into work with

me in the rehab department. And so I took her into work with me and I had one of the orthopedic

surgeons take a look and they did x-rays. And I just couldn't believe it because this was a dog

that had caught two rabbits. She caught a bird taking flight. She ran like the wind, like so fast.

And she had end-stage osteoarthritis in both of her hips. And she had arthritis in a shoulder.

And so talk about missing something. So I say in this PDF that like, there's no blame, there's no

shame. Like, you know, dogs are trained, like it's in their very nature to hide pain from us.

But there are loopholes. And that's what Julie and I have talked some in the past about some of

these loopholes and different ways to read our dogs and become more in tune with them that'll

help us get around their natural inclination and just the DNA of them to hide the pain.

So that's my story of like my, oh my gosh, aha moment. Like I got to look more deeply.

Like I started thinking, why in the world do we not evaluate dogs for pain before they show us

signs instead of after? Because once they're showing the pain, it's pretty bad, right?

Because they're dogs. I asked you about that, Julie. So is that your experience? They will hide it as much

as they can. Is that your interest? Yes, absolutely. It just goes to the very core of who they are.

So when they're showing pain, like you say, when we, the ones who don't know, spot it.

Right. I mean, so think about just my story with Happy. And so I had had her for, she was five when

she, when I got those x-rays done and she was about one and a half when I got her. So we're

talking about three and a half years. I had her that she had hip dysplasia and arthritis developing

and I had absolutely no idea. She showed no signs of it. And I'm trained to look for those.

So that tells you just how much dogs can hide it. Now, some hide it more than others. Some

have a drive to hide it more than others. And that can be somewhat breed specific. But

yeah, she was just one of those that she wasn't going to tell me unless she absolutely had to.

So thanks, thankfully to Bear, I mean, in a way I was mad at him for making my dog hurt,

this puppy. But, but he, he helped point it out. And then since then she's been on joint

supplements and I've been working with her. Right. So what did you learn then? What are the

things that we need to be looking for that we're clearly missing? Yeah, well, don't wait for all

those obvious signs that I pointed out. So don't wait for your dog to cry out. Don't wait for your

dog to limp. Don't wait for them to hold their leg up. And so what I advocate for is doing like,

say, every month is just kind of doing a basic evaluation on your dog. And that's something in

an upcoming course that I have coming out later this year that I'm going to, I'm going to teach

dog parents how to do is do a really thorough examination. But even short of that, like you can

run your hands along your dog's legs and spine, you can do a little like massage techniques,

you know, kind of kneading motion, see if you pick up on any, you know, like, if they quickly jump,

like say they're lying on their sides and you get a quick, okay, you just hit a spot that's either

sore or painful, or, you know, sometimes with muscle soreness, dogs carry a lot of their

tension, right, just in front of where their scapulas come together, the shoulder blades,

and also just behind. And so if you're massaging in that area, and your dog's not really used to it,

there may be like a sudden jump, like, oh my gosh, like, that's a sore spot. I think the

biggest thing I can say for, you know, short of being trained to do these evaluations on your dog

is just to keep your hands on and to, to feel all over and don't be afraid, like to palpate

along the bones and to move the joints. And so palpate, palpate along the joints. What does that

mean? Okay, palpate. Yeah, I know if I, if I use any of my PT lingo, stop me. Palpating is,

palpation is just feeling. Right. So, so you could take a dog's leg. Okay, this is really corny,

but I have a stuffed animal right here. I love it. Like, you know, yeah, normally I do Lily,

my real golden retriever, but you can feel along, you can feel along each toe. And you can put

pressure and just go along the bones and feel and notice if your dog's responding and take your

time. You can go really slow. And then I do the same thing with each little joint. So like with

the toes, you can move them and, you know, flexion is bending, extension is, is bringing back the

other way, straightening in some cases. And what you want to do with your dog, ideally you get

them relaxed, lying flat on their sides and really comfortable. Maybe you've just massaged

them just a little bit, make them feel good and cozy there. Maybe you have treats around and,

you know, it's a happy place. And cause you know, going to the vet, it gets stressful and the exams

are not, you know, they're kind of, so at home it's so much better and you can just get them

comfy. They're in their own environment. And then just, you know, maybe one day you're just loving

on them and you're going to say, okay, I'm just going to test the right front leg.

And then what you want to do is just move the different joints through the range of motion

and to full range of motion. So, so, you know, if they're feeling any pain now, what dogs will do.

So like, I'll give you an example with the forelimbs. So if my dog was lying on the side,

I'd stretch the leg all the way forward. And then I'd bring the leg all the way back and

straighten it out like you're flying. And then with the elbow, you just flex and extend the

wrist. You can do the same and you can do the same with the digits. What you want to do is go

really, really slowly and watch your dog's eyes. So if your dog is really reactive,

you probably don't even need to, to hone in so closely at the eyes because you're,

you're probably going to get your dog jumping around and telling you to stop or, you know,

or maybe even putting a hand on or the mouth on the hand. But with my dog, like Lily,

one of my goldens, she's like as sweet as can be. She's got no, no bite in her.

So what Lily will do, and, and it's really good to practice with this is like, if I stretch her

triceps like a little far forward, so you take the whole leg, you stretch it forward. So if they're

lying on the, their side, I call this shy dog. It's because it's like they're covering their

face when it starts getting to be a bit much of a stretch for her. All she'll do is cause she

really trusts me. She'll just kind of look over her eyes to the side. I'm looking like she'll

just look kind of toward me and cause she's so laid back. So like, I would say it depends on

your dog and their personality, but some will just lift up their head casually and look,

that's a sign something's not quite feeling great there. Other dogs at the far extreme,

so you go anywhere from a bite or jumping up and freaking out to on like Lily,

you'll just get this little eye movement where, you know, instead of her eyes looking forward or

being closed, she'll just like open them and kind of look toward the direction of whatever's going

on. You just, that's one way to be a detective is, is just to watch their reaction and, and,

and then see if it is replicated. So say every time you bring the shoulder all the way back,

so like Superman kind of thing, and that tests the biceps tendon actually.

So if you're suspicious of biceps tendonitis, what you would do is put the shoulder all the

way back and the elbow straight, and it puts maximal stress on that. If you have, if your

dog has biceps tendonitis, that's going to hurt. Dogs that'll let you do it. You know their biceps

is fine. I tell you one thing that really dumps out at me, and I'm, I'm guessing that people

listening will, will get this too. Separation anxiety owners get really good at knowing what's

normal. So what's normal for their dog and then what's not normal. And I feel like that's almost

what we should be doing with pain. So maybe one day I do that thing with the shoulder and there's

no reaction, but maybe next month I do it and I do get a little head turn. So I should know what's my

dog's normal reaction to that, right? Yeah, absolutely. So in the ideal world,

what I started saying initially was maybe every month, just, just kind of get a read on,

on your dog's flexibility, range of motion. And if you, if this is over your head, I can

teach you these things. I can teach you very simply how to do this with your dog at home.

It's something that I feel every dog parent should know how to do. And I wish that our

vets had time to say, here, do this every month. And if there's a problem, come in and see me,

but they just don't have the time. And frankly, most vets don't examine dogs this closely.

So I think it really gives us a leg up on everything, a jumpstart or whatever you want

to call it. Like we're much more proactive if we're keeping an eye, really close eye on our

dogs and their musculoskeletal systems so much so that we can go to the vet and say, you know what,

I keep getting a painful response every time my dog's right knee is extended all the way.

And that may not mean much to you, but to me and to vets out there that are well-versed in

orthopedics, it means a lot. We then would know what to test for. That could totally slip by on

any annual visit when you go to your vet and just get, you know, a workup and make sure everything's

fine. I'm just a big advocate that we should be our own dog's best health advocate. Like we can't

rely on just one vet. Like we need to be the primary care person and then we hire a vet and

we hire a physical therapist and, you know, whatever it is. And I think that our dogs will

be better off for it. So I wanted to ask you a bit more about prevention because you're talking

to us about doing this every month, getting to know what's normal for our dogs, spotting things

before they get too bad. Oh, and by the way, you do have like a cheat sheet handout type thing on

this, don't you? Which I will link to everybody listening. I'll link to that so that you can

download Julie's notes rather than you all scribbling away. But we'll link to that. But

let's just talk about, if you don't mind, a bit more about prevention. Any tips, any other things

that we do with our dogs every day that physical therapists like you just cringe at and you think,

oh no, don't do that. What are we doing wrong? What could we do to prevent our dogs getting injured?

One of them that drives me bananas is jumping off beds and couches. And I'm guilty of this too

because I've always had Golden Retrievers, other than Happy who I rescued, until recently. And I

have two young Havanese now. And now it's like they're on and off the couch and I can't, I used

to tell my clients, look, if they're on the couch, just lift them down and put them on the floor. If

you know they're going to jump off, well, you don't always know they're going to jump off. I do that

if I'm getting up. And so here's my spiel on this. Jumping off couches for small dogs and jumping

off couches and beds for any dog is really, really hard on the spine. And so in this, actually my

other, I have three free PDFs that you can download from my website. One of them is the

seven things you may be doing every single day that are putting your dog at risk for injury.

And I talk about all of these that I'll mention. I'm going to talk about a few, but

they're all in there. What it does is it jars the spine in the area where you tend to see

disc herniations. And so imagine a dog jumping off the bed. The force is so much through the

front legs and then it gets transferred into the spine. And then right at the area of weakness

where they tend to herniate their discs is where they're getting so much pressure on the spine.

And I've always told like my human physical therapy patients that have had disc herniations,

it's not the one, it's often we'll see men like doing a lot of shoveling and it's not that one

movement. It's the thousands of movements that, you know, doing over and over and over.

And it just seems like that last one that really gets you where when they herniate a disc. Now,

fortunately for us people, like we don't go paralyzed when we herniate a disc like dogs do.

So, but that seriously ups the ante when it comes to dogs. Like we don't want our dogs to

have a herniated disc and be paralyzed. What I tell people is just minimize it as much as you can.

Don't freak out if your dog jumps off the couch. Like mine have today probably 10 times.

But when I know that I'm getting up, whenever, you know, like they're not on my bed or I would

have a ramp or something, the little ones. For my little ones when they're on the couch and

jumping down, like my husband was playing fetch with Gizmo last night and with a pair of my

socks, no less, but they love my socks. And he had Gizmo jump up on the couch and then he threw

her down. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm like having to train my husband. No, no,

keep him on the floor. I don't want him jumping up and down. So where we can minimize it,

let's minimize it. But at the same time, like don't be paranoid about it. You know, let's just

try to minimize that. Everybody's on Amazon. You know that everybody's on Amazon typing steps for

small dogs. Everybody's on ramps and stairs. Yeah, they're great. So especially if your dog,

any size dog gets on and off the bed, I think it's imperative. And that's just like a great

thing. Maybe it could step off if it was a low bed. I don't know. Another one that drives me

batty and it happens all the time is the weekend warrior syndrome. You do nothing all week long.

And all of a sudden now because you're off work, you can go hike for four hours and you want your

dog to go with you. That's just not cool. I mean, imagine if you laid around all day long, all week,

and then somebody made you run a marathon on the weekend. It's just not fair. And it's actually,

I might be a little bit out there to say bordering on abusive. But if we think about

it and how much we're taxing our dogs, if they're deconditioned, and then all of a sudden on the

weekend, they've got to do so many hours, like, you know, it could be an all day hike. And I hear

this all the time. And my people come back to me and they say, my dog's always so sore on Monday.

Like, I know why. And so that's just an area where it's really, really easy to have injuries

because say after even if it's just I mean, not being extreme, even if it's just dog doesn't do

any walks, and they go for an hour walk on the weekend, I think we even need to be careful about

that. Because even if it's a slow, well controlled walk, it's way more than they're used to doing.

And it may be that 30 minutes in, they've kind of had it and their legs are tired,

and they don't really want to do anymore. Well, the muscles are the secondary stabilizers of joints.

And so behind the ligaments, so the ligaments, you everybody's probably heard of the cruciate

ligaments and people and then dogs. And so the hamstrings are the secondary stabilizers of that

ligament. And so if you've got a dog that's walking up hills, and its hamstrings are totally

tired, wiped out, they're not going to come in and assist if there's a little bobble,

then you could more easily tear that cruciate ligament, right? So it's, it's really, really

important to only do the amount of exercise that that's optimal for them and not be a weekend

warrior. Yeah. So but if you're doing a reasonable amount every day, because lots of people whose

dogs have separation anxiety, the dogs go with them everywhere. So they get some of them get

a lot of exercise. I guess what you're saying it's a condition for it, because they're doing

it regularly. No, it's not such a bad thing. But don't go from 10 minutes a day to five hours on

a Sunday. Yeah, yeah. And if your dog's used to hour long walks every day, that's awesome.

I'm jealous. I wish I'd do that with my dogs. Then say on the weekend, don't go do hardcore

agility for two hours. You know, if if it was that kind of thing, I would just gradually build that

up. I think it's fine to do a different activity on the weekends. But just be really mindful about

how you're incorporating it, like how you start out and how you progress and make sure your dogs,

you know, this is one of the things where I talk about how we need to be really, really observant.

So if your dog's muscles are starting to do like a little shake, they're done. Like don't push

beyond that. Imagine how it feels for us when we're like, say, if we're doing a wall sit or

squat. It's like I can't do anymore. You know, it's like I got to stop. And so when you see that

muscle twitching, definitely look for that in your dogs. You tend to see it more in the back

legs than the front. But that's a sign that they've had it and they need a break. Got it.

Got it. Right. We're all making a note of that. I know. Note to self as well. And there's a reason

why physios and canine physios are busy, busy on the Mondays, I guess. Everybody's like, I need

help. I'm guilty of that. Guilty of being that person. This is such good stuff. I'm loving it.

So people can download a cheat sheet about prevention as well, because there are other

things. But in the interest of time, I'm going to move us on. Yeah. Yeah. There are other things.

Because I really want to talk about hip dysplasia as well. Now, I'm really fortunate. I've never

had a dog with hip dysplasia. I've had dogs about all sorts of things. But when your dog

has got hip dysplasia, it's a big deal. Right. Can you tell us a bit about your work with dogs

with hip dysplasia? Yeah. Well, so it is a big deal. So this is the thing. And I don't want to

minimize it for anyone because I've been there multiple times. But I have been there before I

was in this field. And I was devastated. So when I got the diagnosis, so I was going to say it is

a big deal, but it's also not a big deal. Yeah. Because it's made on the Internet. It's made into

this devastating like, oh, my gosh, it's the worst thing I could possibly hear. My dog has hip

dysplasia. Oh, no. And the reality of it is, is that all that means is that instead of a perfect

fit of your the ball in the socket, it's just not maybe it's loose. Maybe it's up here a little bit.

You're going to get some bone on bone grinding or have some laxity. And that leg will probably

be a little weaker. So you'll end up with arthritis. But it's not like life or death.

And so many times I've heard like, oh, my God, am I going to have to euthanize my dog over this?

And I'm screaming, no, no. Let's think about this. Like if we had a bad hip, would we what would we

do? Right. We'd take joint supplements, we'd get physical therapy, maybe take some pain meds like

if if it got so bad that it warranted surgery, we may do a hip replacement. And so that's I like to

bring keep bringing people back to because that medicine is a big, big industry and it's a big

moneymaker. And so I like to keep bringing people back to what would we do? Like, let's think about

this logically. What would we do? And so. All right. My hip the hip is not in the best alignment.

I need to strengthen the muscles around the leg. I'm going to go ahead and put my dog on joint

supplements and do things that are very supportive to maximize the best possible outcome down the

line. But I tell you what, a lot of times what happens is people rush in. They end up getting

referred to a surgeon, an orthopedic surgeon, who, of course, because that's what they offer.

You can't fault them for that. They recommend surgery. And all these dogs are getting hip

replacements with no pain. It's crazy. I just saved a woman in Alaska from she has an eight

month old, probably nine month old now golden retriever puppy named Willow. And she had already

got the two dates on the schedule for two different surgeries, both of which were going to

be five thousand dollars U.S. Well, yeah, U.S. dollars in Canada. And her dog's running, playing,

jumping, not showing any signs of pain. And it took a process of working with her. I have a

process called choosing your path is basically for hip dysplasia dogs to for their moms and dads to

help choose their treatment path. And I took her through that. They canceled the surgeries. They

they've got ten thousand dollars in their pocket they wouldn't have. They've got a dog that's happy

and now they're starting the home program that I suggested. Most dogs with hip dysplasia,

if you keep them good and strong with a regular daily exercise program, which is so easy to

implement at home, it can take as little as 10 minutes or at most 30 minutes. Your dogs can do

fine and avoid surgery. So it's made to be into a bigger deal than it is. But for all of us who

love our dogs so much, I mean, they're like our kids. It is a big deal. And so, you know, you you

want to do as much as you can possibly do, which is why I'm so excited about this program that I've

been developing and I'm putting out there pretty soon. So it's it's going to help really take

people all the way from the point of, oh, OMG, I'm freaking out. I'm devastated. I don't know

what to do. I don't know where to start. Like, ah, my head's spinning. This is what people tell me.

Like, my head is spinning. I don't even know. Yeah. Take them all the way from that point,

just calming them down, teaching them the different paths they could take, choosing,

helping them choose which one's best for their dog, and then go on and let's create the ideal

home program for your dog. And every dog is different. And so that's that takes some tweaking

and figuring out, which I love. I think it's great fun to like sometimes one exercise will irritate

one dog and another irritates another. And some dogs tolerate everything. And like my golden

retriever, Tucker, that got me into canine physical therapy, he could only do 10 minutes

of running and chasing balls. I worked with him and got him. So his hip was on x-ray was like

it wasn't even in the socket. And we were told he was going to need a hip replacement as soon

as he was full grown. So once again, a surgery is being recommended for a dog that's even full

grown. What I realized is, well, I know the muscles are the secondary stabilizers of joints.

So I need to get the muscles around his hip as strong as possible. And so I did that. And I

started with walking and just simple things. But he loved to run and chase balls, but then it would

irritate. And so he'd get in the cycle of inflammation and, you know, and pain. And you

don't want to get in. I call those flare ups. You want to avoid those. I literally worked with him

just step by step. So it was like, OK, you get three chases of the ball. That's it. And he was

fine. And then, you know, like the next I can't remember, this was about 20 years ago. But but as

an example, you know, maybe for three days we do that. And then he got a fourth one the next day,

you know, and so you just gradually progress. And then and then I stopped counting and I went to

minutes. I'm like, OK, I'm just going to start timing how long we're running. And for him,

it was it was like it really, really interesting, because for him, if he went any bit more than 10

minutes, 11, 12 minutes, anything like that, he would get sore and he'd get flared up. And then

we'd have to take a few days rest and then we'd be starting not starting back over. But, you know,

we might do seven, eight minutes and then I work him back up to 10. I always got stuck at 10.

But the nice thing for him is that was really fast running and, you know, running to chase

the ball and then he kind of trot back. And for him, it was just the perfect exercise that worked

because it was what he loved and it kept his legs really super strong. But it's it's so it's

different for every dog. So I like to work with owners and and help them kind of pick and choose

what's best for not just the dog, but for the human, too, because you're a it's a team effort.

And so, like for me, I wasn't going to go on an hour long walk. It's just not my thing.

But playing in the backyard for even if it had if we'd worked up to 30 minutes,

that would have been fun for me. But I wanted to be in my backyard. So so I like to work with

people and say, like, OK, what are your time constraints? Can you work with your dog before

work at all or at lunch or after work or, you know, like, what are we working with?

What can you do? And then within that, I build their home program.

Yeah, I love it. So it's know your dog and it needs to be just like with our training program.

Know your dog. We always say, go at your dog's pace, do what your dog can handle.

So you're saying things that we talk about a lot. I love it.

I have to ask, though, because if I ask you two questions about something you've said,

first of all, can you talk to us about when you might recommend crate rest for a dog?

I'll tell you why I say that, because if you've got a dog with separation anxiety,

very often they have confinement phobia, too. And a lot of my owners will freak out when they

get told to do crate rest. They'll be like, my dog will not stay in a crate.

So when do you think that that is a must?

OK, well, so keep in mind that I'm a physical therapist and we're all about what's functional.

Right. And I like to be a little bit outside the box.

So that's my disclaimer on my answer. I don't think confinement's ever necessary.

We love Julie, don't we?

Now, there is a but. There's a big but. Say your dog just had a TPLO for a crew chute repair.

If your dog does too much early motion on that repair, the screws are going to back out and

then you're going back in for surgery to get all the hardware out. That's just an example.

There are certain surgeries. And also, as I talked about the disc herniation surgery,

there are certain surgeries where the dogs need to their movement needs to be kept to a minimum.

I've had clients in the past who have come to me and said, Julie,

I can't keep my dog in the crate. They're jumping up and it's like a little

dachshund jumping up and down. It's like terrible. All this motion on the spine

or, you know, my dog's moving in circles in the crate because it's anxious.

For a bigger dog, say post knee surgery or hip surgery, whatever.

In those cases, once again, if you just bring it back down to common sense,

like in those cases, these dogs are doing worse for them than they would if they were not confined.

And so, like, they're just doing motion after motion after motion, which is harmful.

Otherwise, like what I, so those, so these little dachshunds after back surgery, I'd tell people

because the surgeons would say 23 and a half hours a crate rest a day. Like they could be out

just enough to go to the bathroom and eat. Like that's it. And I would say to my clients,

because at discharge when they were leaving the hospital, I'd meet with them and teach

them all the physical therapy. Yeah. And I'd say, OK, that 23 and a half hour thing.

Here's why it's true that we need your dog's spine to be that still. And then I'd scare them

legitimately so because what happens if you have too much early motion? I think education

breeds compliance. Yeah. So if you're if you're fully educated on why your dog needs to be still,

then you get it and you'll say, oh, OK, my dog really needs to be still.

And so what happens in these guys is too much early motion and you can get too much scar

tissue development where that disc was compressing the spinal cord. And then you're back where you

started. And usually these dogs we'd see come in around three weeks post-op and they would be

getting better, better, better and then worse again. Obviously, if you go to the extent of

having your dog have a surgery or something like that, you don't want to damage the repair.

You don't want to have a bad outcome. And so so I always would tell my clients in that case,

keep them right there with you on the couch if you're watching TV or sit on the floor with them

and they're perfectly happy and they're not. They're just going to be sound asleep and you

can be even doing the physical therapy stuff that I that I've taught them to do.

Another thing I've suggested is, you know, if a crate was too confining to try

blocking off a room or, you know, just just a space where you could also be.

So your dog wasn't like freaking out. Yeah, because that's such a good point.

It hasn't occurred to me before, but I will so be relaying this. We've got a dog in who's got

to do crate rest, but they panic in a crate. They're going to do all sorts of damage to their

newly operated upon whatever it might be. Yeah, it totally defeats the purpose.

Oh, so it's not what they should say is movement restriction instead of crate rest.

Like what the heck is crate rest? Everybody is loving hearing this. And I certainly am.

You've changed my view on it. Of course, it's keep the dog perfectly still. And dogs who hate

crates are never perfectly still in their crate. They're more likely to, despite all the medication.

Oh, my goodness. I love that. I'm going to ask you another tricky one now. Sorry. And you can

totally pass on what you want. I've been told not to play ball. I've been told that fetch is really

bad. I've been told that playing ball is really going to be bad for my puppy, for my dog, for my

senior. Can you bust a few myths or maybe not about ball play and fetch? You've already talked about

the fact that it was the right exercise for your dog, but bust some myths for us. If you want me

to myth bust, I will say, is it bad to play soccer as humans? Is it bad to play football as humans?

These things require a lot of running and cutting. Cutting meaning fast stop, changing directions,

that kinds of thing, those kinds of things. I think that they become bad for your dog if your

dog isn't at a fitness level to support it. If you're doing a lot of activity with your dog,

say they do 30-minute walks every day or hour-long walks or whatever. Say you've done a little

trotting and maybe five, 10 minutes of trotting with them while you're out on your walk and that

is normal. With everything, just think about if I went out right now and I tried to do a roundoff

back flip-flop into a flip, I don't know, I'd break everything in my body. It just doesn't

make sense. Do we want them chasing balls without any prep? No, because that's running,

which is harder than trotting, which is harder than walking. Then there's all this cutting,

but there's ways to build up to that. Like with Tucker, when I did a little trotting with him on

leash, I did a little work cutting through cones that was controlled on leash. I built him up to

the point where I felt like he was safe, that he could go and run, pivot, turn, do whatever he

needed to do, and he was fine. Now, you can have fluke injuries when dogs are...

Okay, here's another thing. You don't want to play chase on a slippery floor, like a fetch,

so make it the grass. I wouldn't recommend asphalt or cement because there's no give to it,

and so it's just more pounding on the joint. I would choose, if it's a small dog and you have

a big enough space, like carpet, or the grass is a great place. Out in a field is a great place.

We keep coming back to it. I didn't know this would happen, but we keep coming back to,

let's just think logically. If we relate this to something we might do. I really like that.

With these types of questions, I think, well, depending, physical therapists, if you're in the

U.S., physiotherapists outside are really the experts to answer that question.

I'm agreeing with you. I think it's specialism. There's nothing like seeing 30 dogs a week who've

got musculoskeletal issues to know your stuff, right? I'm a great believer in specialism,

so yeah. I wouldn't have had you on here if I didn't passionately think it was the case,

but just coming back to what you were saying about relating it to how we would feel or what

we would do. We talk a lot with separation anxiety about it being a panic disorder. It's a phobia,

and just as, and I'm sorry, I hope you haven't got a phobia of snakes. I use snakes or spiders a lot,

but just as we wouldn't lock somebody in a room with spiders if they hated spiders, so we don't

lock separation anxiety dogs at home alone with their fear of being home alone. I think we all

get that more when we start to think like that. Oh yeah, no, I wouldn't want to do that. That

would be awful. So it's a good takeaway for this as well, for this topic.

Perfect, and thank you. Thank you so much. You've been brilliant.

All right, we'll chat again soon, Julie. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Fixing Separation Anxiety Podcast with Julie Mays-Smith.

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