Why We Expect Too Much of Dogs and How to Redress The Balance

It's over 25 years now since Gene Donaldson wrote The Culture Clash, in which he majors

on the cruel trick of telling dogs that everything that comes naturally to them, whether that's

barking or chewing, sniffing, licking, jumping up, and maybe occasionally squabbling, that

all those things that we think are problem behaviours are actually not problems to dogs.

And it was groundbreaking stuff and yet here we are still, we're still correcting dogs

for things that they think are just perfectly natural to do. So it's really no wonder that

dogs struggle and so often in our eyes get it all wrong. And that's why in this episode

I'm just thrilled to be chatting to Jane Robinson, Chair of the Association for Pet Dog Trainers

in the UK, about our expectations for dogs today and to what degree those expectations

can ever match up to the reality. As well as her role as Chair of the APTD UK, Jane

runs Dog on the Hill in London, where she helps find families realistic, easy to learn

and attainable solutions that work for both them and their dog, and solutions that help

families raise a really well-adjusted, well-behaved and happy dog. Let's dive in.

Hello and welcome to the Be Right Back Separation Anxiety Podcast. Hi, I'm Julie Naismith, Dog

Trainer, Author and full-on Separation Anxiety Geek. I've helped thousands of dogs overcome

separation anxiety with my books, my online programmes, my trainer certification and my

Separation Anxiety Training App. And this podcast is all about sharing my tips and tricks

to help you teach your dog how to be happy at home alone too.

Jane, it is an absolute pleasure to chat to you today. What could be better than sitting

and chatting to you about dogs?

Oh, I know, I know. And thank you for inviting me to speak with you on our favourite topic.

It doesn't get much better. So we're talking today all about expectations, and I know that's

a big thing for you and I. You know, you and I have talked about that a lot in the context

of home alone training, and we've talked about how it's hard for dogs to do this really weird

thing of being alone, but lots of dogs do it and they do it successfully. And you and

I both help the dogs that don't do it, do it so well. But today I want to broaden it

because you don't just work with dogs with home alone issues, you work with dogs with

lots of different things going on. So I want today's episode all about talking about the

expectations we have of dogs generally and how we can kind of bridge the gap between

what we might expect of dogs and what's actually realistic.

Yeah, and maybe my life is slightly more sort of out there and skewed because I live in

a very busy part of North London and it's very urban and I see lots of different breeds

of dogs, but frequently the owners haven't done a lot of research through no fault of

their own. Everybody is very time poor here and therefore their expectations really are

skewed because they literally do not have a lot of time to do dog training. And my niche,

if you like, is to kind of get in there and often talk about expectations, good management

and understanding that the dog isn't going to train itself.

Yeah, yeah. Occasionally people get lucky and there are those one-off dogs who just

seem to be perfect regardless of what we do, almost, you know, despite what we do. But yeah,

that is so true. And I love what you said about the time poor. Somebody who used to

live in East London, I totally get that. My life is, yeah, there's different stresses,

but sitting in traffic or trying to get the tube in time to get to work is not one of them anymore.

But also I think as well, tell me what your view on this is, there's time poor,

but then there's also just inclination because sometimes it's not the most fun thing that people

do. Well, yeah, believe it or not, not everybody's into dog training, I mean, really. But yes,

yeah, not everybody has time or the inclination or the interest to train their puppies. And that's

when it comes down to good management or as we say in Home Alone training, sometimes we have to

go for the least worst option, whatever that looks like. And where I live, I see a lot of owners

giving their dogs to doggy daycare for the day or the week or using the services of dog walkers.

And if they didn't use those services, then they wouldn't be able to have a dog in the first place.

So I totally get it. But then frequently I'm working with frustrated dogs who have access

to other dogs all week. And then come the weekend when the owner takes the dog out,

the dog gets frustrated because they no longer have access because they're either on lead or

then the owner can't get the dog back because the dog has spent all week in a group of

dogs. Coming back to the owner isn't really at the top of their list.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So that's the kind of stuff that I encounter an awful lot in my particular area of busy London.

So just backing up a bit, you run classes and you also do one-to-ones,

so private consultations, right?

Yes, yeah.

So people coming to classes, just to quickly summarise, their biggest problems they state are

things like recall, how the dog is on lead. Are those the kind of two big things in North London

in the city?

Well, I teach the life skills course to puppies, and the puppies who have done my life skills

course are then given the option to do more advanced work in the class. So with the classes,

I guess I'm kind of lucky because I'm getting to the owners before they've experienced daycare

or dog walkers, and I can explain to them what the ramifications of that might be.

And the first week of my course is held without the puppies, and I do a presentation of what life

skills are and what's...

Oh, I love that.

Yeah, and lots of pictures, because we all love pictures and videos. And everyone's invited to

ask questions, and usually everyone has the same kind of questions, and they're

encountering the same issues with their puppies. But on a one-to-one basis, I would say most of my

work is... Well, not most of it, but a fair part of my work is working with people who, as I've

said, are time poor, and their recall's gone out the window. They've got dogs who are barking at

the end of the lead, usually because the dogs are just really frustrated because they just want to

hang out with their friends. Which is fair enough, and the dogs are at the end of the lead.

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to come back to that one because it's an often confusing behaviour for

lots of owners, I think. But let's just go back to your classes, because you mentioned that lots of

people seem to have similar questions. So what sort of questions are new puppy owners having

most frequently?

Well, you know, it's always toilet training. That's always top of the list. And I've mentioned,

before they get to ask, I have a section in my presentation about home-alone training,

and as you so rightly put it, that it is equally as important as toilet training. So I will put

that at the top of my list before people have asked it. And asking clients if they've got

cameras yet, if they've observed their dogs. And of course, they've all read, on the internet,

go and stand outside for 10 minutes, and then come back to the puppy and build it up that way.

And I make it really clear that if the puppy's already stressed at, you know, 10 seconds,

then you've kind of blown it. And managing those expectations and explaining how puppies

are really vulnerable when they're left on their own. It's not part of what puppyhood is about,

you know, it leaves you open to predation. So that can be a lightbulb moment for owners.

All the stuff that puppies do will crop up. Jumping, digging, chewing, nipping,

all the things that puppies do, because it's part of what puppies do, that we go,

I don't like that. And putting it into the context that this is what you've brought into your house,

a chewing, licking, jumping machine. And we can't approach it from the perspective of

stopping. But we can certainly prevent it from the perspective of preventing

and managing and making sure that the puppy has outlets for those natural behaviours.

Ah, I love that you say natural behaviours. So, you know, I always go back to the mid-90s,

which means like an age ago, and it is a lot of people listening, they might not even have been

born. But that's when my mentor, Dean Donaldson wrote Culture Clash. And she talked about in

Culture Clash, basically, you know, dogs are living as aliens in this completely strange

world that makes no sense to them, where everything that's normal and you use the word

natural, is stuff that these humans think is wrong. Dogs like to jump, don't jump. Dogs like

to chase things, don't chase, don't chew. And so dogs are trying to make sense of this world where

everything that comes naturally to them, we're going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

don't do that. Yeah. And the, you know, the connection that a dog gets with a human

for jumping, it's really reinforcing and rewarding. And they said the woman whose dog

just came and jumped on me because I know he wants to sit on my lap.

Anyway, there's a connection when the puppy does the jumping and the owner says no, or stop it.

And the puppy goes, oh, you really love me. I'll do that again. And they're just being puppies.

And of course, if you've got a teeny tiny chihuahua, it's just no big deal. But if you

brought a Great Dane into your house or a Labrador, it's going to be perceived completely differently.

Yeah, so true. And the sitting on or the sitting on furniture, of course, we get that question

about that all the time when it comes to Home Alone training, because people have read

on the interweb that mustn't let your dog on the sofa, mustn't let your dog sleep with you,

because, well, if you do that, you know, your dog is going to take over the world.

It's going to dominate you and also develop separation anxiety. So stop it right now.

And of course, it's nonsense. Why do dogs like to sit on sofas next to us?

Because sofas are comfy. We think that dogs sometimes like to be a bit higher up as well.

So that kind of factors in. And guess what? That's where we are, too. It's very, very innocent stuff.

But for whatever reason, the interweb has decided it's sinister and we must stop it.

Well, I mean, that goes back to the beginning of time, doesn't it? Where

dogs are trying to dominate us and they're secretly plotting to take over the world.

By the way, Jane and I both got air quotes going on here. If you're listening.

Yes.

What we're saying about dogs dominating and taking over the world is absolute nonsense.

It's been proven to be such. It's just it still exists as a myth. So,

no, if you want your dog to be on the sofa with you, let your dog be on the sofa with you. Jane

and I are both giving you permission right now to do that.

Oh, my goodness. I'm just on the sofa, in your bed, on your bed.

Yeah.

Wherever. They're a highly social species, aren't they?

And they want that connection from us.

Yeah. I mean, how many times you see pictures as well of

dogs in households where there's multiple dogs, which is mine, but my dogs don't do this.

But dogs in households where there's multiple dogs sleeping in a big pile,

you see puppies sleeping in big piles and you see dogs that live on the streets offering,

kind of curling up to one another. It's just like it's a natural behavior.

Anyway, so on this thread now, we could this could be a whole other podcast episode of Dog Myths.

But yeah, the natural things. And so you've got these puppies coming to class and they're,

you know, they're little land sharks. They're diggers. They are jumpers. They are little

mini destroyers. And do you ever get people who are just totally overwhelmed and aghast that

they've ended up with this thing doing all these things that they didn't expect?

Yes, frequently. Frequently. I think it's a shock for, I mean, even people who have had

dogs previously, it's a little bit like giving birth, isn't it? Well, if you remembered how

horrific it was, you probably wouldn't do it again. And people, we all forget what it's like

to live with a puppy. If you've had a dog before, you've forgotten those first few months where the

puppy's peeing everywhere and you've got to be really on it to successfully teach your puppy to

go to the toilet wherever you want them to go. So you forget all of that bit. You forget about the

mouthing and the licking and all of it. And for people who are first-time owners, I think they

really are, in my experience, I'd say the majority, even when you've done the research, the majority

are still overwhelmed by the fact that this toddler of a different species is wrecking your

house and peeing everywhere. Of course I understand. I totally get it. And I think also the concept of

good management, it's not mentioned in many internet sites or when you're reading about

getting a puppy, you know, management, good management is key. It's not just about training

the puppy to do X, Y or Z. It's about really good management. Let's talk about management because I

absolutely agree with you that it's massively overlooked, I think, in all of the interweb stuff.

And yet for most of us trainers, it's as fundamental as teaching a new response,

teaching a new behaviour. But it doesn't get talked about. And the other thing I find

is that when it does, it's almost like it's, oh, but that's a compromise or that's, you know,

you shouldn't have to put a lead on the dog at the park just because the squirrels, your dog should

just respect you and come back because it wants to. So putting a lead on the dog, that's not a

good practice. It's almost like you're cheating. If you use baby gates and X pens and you put your

puppy on a lead and it's like you're cheating and you haven't actually taught them anything. But

when you're time poor, well, set your dog up. We all want to set the dogs up for success at any

age. And as a trainer or somebody that works with behaviour, you've got to set your clients

up to success. Otherwise they're going to quit. Yeah. And it's so important to put in that good

management. Gosh, you know, just make your life so much easier. It's not failure. It's not cheating.

And also we know, don't we, that we often see, well, first off, we want our dogs to behave in

a different way. Then it's really helpful to put in good management to kind of stop them rehearsing

and practising the thing that is difficult for us. But also once they start doing the new thing

and they do less of the old thing, that management is actually helping develop the groove of the new

behaviour too, because that's what they do more of. So it's not cheating. It's not giving in.

It's part and parcel of helping the dog navigate this crazy world.

Yeah, exactly. And our world is, I mean, it's really abstract to a dog. It's really abstract

where I live. Yes. It's hard enough for humans to navigate their way around an urban, you know,

slum environment, let alone a little puppy or an older dog. The thing that I used to really

struggle with, which is not just a London thing, but it's most sort of cities and urban places,

the tiny bits of food that, you know, I've got a dog who will find, you know, the tiny piece of

food at 100 metres, no matter, regardless. Yeah. So if we lived somewhere like that, it would just

be, you know, OK, so what would I do then? What would be a good management strategy for a dog

who finds every single piece of food on the high street? I guess I'd walk, do a different walk.

You could do a different walk. And I do this in my classes because I think it's really important.

We do an introduction to muzzle training and I see people's faces drop. So we think it

initially is a trick where we train the puppies to put their noses inside a paper cup and then,

you know, hey, presto, we'll bring out the muzzles. There's no difference if it's taught

in a kind and fair way. Then the puppy doesn't have the social slant that it feels this is going

to get scary, it's a muzzle. But I think it's really important that dogs are muzzle trained,

just because you never know from a medical perspective when you might need one. But also,

if you have a dog who really loves to scavenge and you haven't taught them to leave it,

it could be a lifesaver. It totally could. It totally could. And actually, as someone whose

dog has got a pretty solid and, I mean, really good leave it, I still, if I was living in a

place where he might find chicken bones, I think I would still muzzle him because there's always

that split second where he sees it before you do. Now, if I see it in time, he'll leave it. But if

I've not spotted it, crunch. I love that you talk about muzzles because that's a much-maligned

management tool that keeps the dog safe from chicken bones, but also, like you say, medical

emergencies, because you don't always know. Your dog might be brilliant at the vet, but in a

situation where they're in pain or something horrible has happened to them, sometimes it's

all bets off. Dogs might react very, very differently. Absolutely. And to have a fearful

dog at the vet and then to suddenly shove a muzzle on its face and add to the fear,

I mean, that must be terrifying for a dog. Absolutely terrifying. And if we put in the

groundwork, well, this bit isn't going to be terrifying, then I just think that's a great

way to go. I really do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And full confession, dog trainers don't always do as

much dog training as they should, as they should, good word, should, very full of judgment. And I'm

one of those. I've got one dog who absolutely loves having his muzzle and two that I've never

even tried with. And so it's a good reminder to me that I should have them all muzzle trained.

So thank you for that reminder on management. So any time management strategy you've talked

about so far, which I'm loving, is baby gates. We're a big fan of baby gates. We've got muzzles

and we've got got those leads, the good old fashioned, just the lead. And I think they're

often overlooked as a great management tool. Absolutely. As long as it's on a harness. Yes.

And not around. And then I don't know. I'm sure this is different universally, but

there's still a certain attitude that, again, harnesses teach your dog to pull,

cheating to put your dog in a harness. And of course, there are certain harnesses that I would

recommend and certain harnesses that I would never recommend. But a harness is a great management

tool, especially if you don't have time to teach your dog to walk on a lead. I couldn't agree more.

And also, if you're going to teach a dog to walk on a loose lead, then you can still do that. You

can do that with a harness. And so it's not like, oh, you know, if I'm going to teach my dog that

beautiful loose lead walking, whether the lead is that big kind of hockey stick shape, nice and

relaxed, then I do that on a flat collar. Well, no, you can do that on the harness too. It's the

same. You use the same training approach. Also, what I love about harnesses, even if you've got

one of those dogs who walks beautifully like that, there might be a rabbit. There could be

squirrels. There's always going to be those moments where they're going to go boom to the

end of their lead. And they'd much rather that's a harness than a flat collar around their necks.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

But again, I feel I see people, I think that's the peer pressure thing. Like at the park,

I see people whose dogs won't come back to them or are picking up bits of food because it's summer

and there's been people picnicking. But it's almost like the shame and the failure of having

to put my dog on a lead at the park rather than that's a really sensible thing to do. And I wonder

if there's peer pressure as well about how our dog should be, because people think, you know,

friends and family think our dog should be a certain way.

Or maybe it's changing attitudes that when you take your dog to the park, it's their walk

and not yours. You can go for a walk at any time you want, but it's the only time when your dog

can get to do what dogs do and therefore let them be as much as we can be dogs and put the

good management in to let them have as much doggy time sniffing and mooching as they can.

And I think that's a big thing as well. Managing expectations and explaining that,

you know, you really do control every resource in your dog's life when they eat, when they pee,

when they drink, when they go out of the house, when they go to the park,

when they get to hang out with their own species. It's their time.

Yeah, I love this so much. I've just done a podcast episode about choice because I think

we underestimate or maybe we overestimate how much choice dogs get. And actually,

the hard reality is they are prisoners. They are captive animals.

Yeah.

So nearly every single decision that they make is governed by us. I mean,

it's kind of every decision, really, because if they're choosing between,

they've got two dog beds to choose between. It's because we've bought those two dog beds and put

those two dog beds where they are in the home. So their choice is which dog bed, not where they are.

Do I want that dog bed? I didn't go onto Amazon and pick that one. I would have picked that one.

It makes my heart sink when people say, well, I've been told not to let him come on the sofa

because, you know, he's exerting his will there. Well, let him because he really doesn't have much

choice in life. Yeah.

Dogs will be dogs.

Yes. Yeah, they will. And they don't often get, I mean, a lot of the time,

they are amazing in their ability not to be dogs all the time and to put up with what we expect of

them. So, yeah, which is why we love them so much. So, you know, given your role at the APDT,

I know you have, you've always got that focus on the profession and what we can do as a profession

of trainers and behavior consultants. So what do you think we as a profession or as professionals

should be doing to help manage this mismatch in expectations?

I think from a professional perspective, the more dog trainers join professional organizations

with good accreditations, I think that really helps the population of dog owners when they're

looking for a dog trainer. The more professionally we present ourselves, the better. All full

members of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers have been assessed to a very high criteria,

which ensures they have the appropriate skills to teach dog training. I'm proud of the fact that I

think we are the gold standard when it comes to dog training in the UK. So if you were looking for

a dog trainer, you could hire me as a full member of the APDT or somebody down the road, but you

would be getting exactly the same level of skill and knowledge, and that should make you feel

confident. Yeah, and just trainer, we use as an umbrella term for it, for kind of a dog professional

who helps change the behavior of a dog, whether that's helping you teach your dog to sit or

helping your dog be comfortable with strange people coming home. That's what we mean when we

say trainer. And yeah, I just wanted to make that one clear. And then there was something you said

as well about, you know, what we can do as professionals and why does it matter to be part

of a professional organization? Well, for a start, it makes us keep up with the latest thinking,

and not just on dog behavior, but helping people, helping you as an owner go through change,

because yes, you know, getting a dog to a finish line in any behavior change is, yes,

knowing how dogs learn, but it's also helping you get there, because it's difficult with lots of

these behaviors. They take a long time and they take a lot of work. Yeah, and all full members of

the APDT, when they're assessed, we're also looking at how the trainer communicates with

the handler. It might, you know, are they recognizing signs of stress, not only in the dog,

but in the owner as well? Does that owner respond better to visual learning, audible learning,

kinesthetic? We've got to be able to communicate as successfully as possible with the handler,

whoever that person may be, and understand that they may have stress and learning disabilities,

they may have physical disabilities that make it difficult for them to do certain exercises,

and we have to be aware of that, and all full members will know that. Yes, yeah, it is so

important, you know, and just going back to that, we talked earlier on about, you know, whether it's

a puppy or a dog, but we were talking about the puppy that comes home and is, you know,

almost completely different to what people expected, or they're surprised by it,

but people often struggle with things like puppy blues, and they struggle with behavior blues as

well, with dogs that suddenly develop behavior problems later in life, and it's tough, it's a

tough ask for lots of people to get over those blues. Yeah, that's really interesting that you

mention that, because it's something that seems to have cropped up quite a bit lately, that

there's almost, it's just something that I've noticed recently is more buyer remorse.

For whatever reason, maybe it's a Covid thing, I just don't know, maybe people's expectations are

much higher, you know, what a fascinating topic, but you know, buyer's remorse, puppy blues,

it seems to be on the increase, in my neck of the woods, I'd be interested to know what other

people are experiencing, other trainers. No, I'm certainly hearing about it too, and I don't know

what the fix is, but I think things that can help are acknowledging it, and validating it,

and saying, yeah, it's okay, you know what, it's okay to love your puppy and think it's adorable,

and then just be driven by, to distraction by the biting, and the chewing, and the pooping

everywhere, that's okay, you know, you can have those two feelings in existence at once, and

it's okay, it's normal, and we need to normalize it, because otherwise, if you're the person

thinking, oh, I feel like a terrible person, because, you know, I don't, maybe I don't love

my puppy as much as I should, it's okay, it's okay, it's normal. I'm sure parents would say

that about kids, there are days when they just want to scream, it doesn't mean that they don't

love their kids, but it's just like, ah, will you stop doing that? You can't throw your children

in the backyard with a handful of kibble, and get them sniffing, just to get you sniffing,

while you put the kettle on. Isn't that the iPad, isn't that where the iPad comes in,

the iPad is the kid equivalent of kibble in their backyard. Yeah, so I feel like puppy

booze could be a discussion for a whole other episode, but yeah, like you, I am seeing a lot,

and you know, if you're listening to this, just know it's okay, and if people, if you,

I'm talking directly to the listener now, if you, if you're going through this, and you think

nobody else is going through it, they're not telling you the truth, your friends who've got

puppy, puppies, or people that you're in Facebook groups with, just know they've all been through

it too, it's really normal. It is completely normal. Yeah, yeah, and it doesn't mean you're

a bad person, it doesn't mean you're a bad owner, it just means, you know, you are dealing with

this, yeah, this completely alien beast in your home that is adorable and fluffy, but does all

these things. Yeah, and it shows how, how you care, how much you care, and how much you want

to get it right, whatever getting it right looks like, and that's another conversation for another

podcast. What does getting it right look like? It does show that you care, if you're feeling

like this, it shows that you care, because otherwise you wouldn't be holding yourself

to a standard, so I love that you said that, Jane. Getting it right, to me, looks like putting

in good management. You know what, and on the management thing as well, and I think I was going

to say earlier on, is trainers probably don't do as much training as most people outside the

profession think that we do, but I tell you what we're really good at, we are really good at

management, aren't we? Absolutely. Yes, yes, and to the extent that people who work with me on my

Separation Anxiety Heroes will know that I say this a lot, honestly, if you've got time to train

for this behaviour, do so, but I bet you haven't, in which case, let's do this management strategy,

because you probably don't want to spend your evenings doing this training on top of all the

other things that you're supposed to be doing. Yeah. And it's not lazy, and it's not cheating,

it's been very sensible. Yeah, absolutely. So with that in mind, just thinking about,

you know, how we can make life easier for people, or maybe just, you know, deal with this

expectation mismatch, particularly with new owners, do you ever have any, do you have any

tips, a top one or two takeaways, things that people might do to help with this feeling of,

what have I got myself into, and what can I do differently?

We've highlighted the importance of good management. I always like to just emphasise

that dogs do not use language to communicate, and you can shout no at your dog as many times as you

like, but you will never address the issue. So you could interrupt behaviour with a loud no,

which is not something I recommend, but you might interrupt the behaviour of chewing, jumping,

licking, defecating. You'll never address the fact that the dog had a need to chew,

lick, mouth, defecate. So you'll never be teaching your dog anything.

You can only teach what you want, you can't teach what you don't want. You cannot teach an animal

what you do not want them to do, but you sure as hell can teach them what you do want them to do

instead. And I think, although everybody knows that dogs don't use language to communicate,

it sometimes comes as a lightbulb moment where people go, oh, yeah, they don't.

They don't speak English, do they? Yeah, absolutely. Jane, you and I have talked so many

times about the importance of understanding canine body language, haven't we? And then you

can take it from there. Prevention is always better than cure. Yes, yes. Prevention is always

better than losing your temper. Yes, yeah. And preventing does stop you from feeling frustrated.

Yes, putting the baby gates up to stop the dog getting into the kitchen to steal the food is

going to make you feel way better about cooking when your dog's around. And using food in training,

again, I still come across this, well, I don't want a fat puppy. I don't want the dog relying

on food. I don't want, you know, whatever. The dog won't do it without food. And we do spend a

long time discussing the difference between bribery and reward. And there is a huge difference.

And the more you invest now, the bigger the payoff down the line. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong

with rewarding your dog for doing good stuff, whatever that good stuff looks like to you in

your home, in your environment. You know, my expectations might be completely different to

your expectations. What you find undesirable in your home, I might not care about in my home.

That's fine. Yes, just reward the hell out of the stuff that you do like, and you will see

behavior change. Yeah, it's, I sometimes feel like we're pushing water uphill with this one with the,

I need, you know, I don't want to have to rely on trees. Well, you know, you go to the dog park,

you go for a dog walk, you always have a, you know, a poo bag in your pocket. Well,

all the time, actually, which dog person doesn't have pockets full of poo bags?

I don't know if you have a walk around the streets of North London.

Oh, yeah, that's true. You think, well, wait a minute, don't you have your every single

pocket stuffed with unused poop bags ready to go? But you know, treats just become a habit as well.

And you just, yeah, you just have them because they're a great thing to have in your doggy

arsenal. It's great to have treats. And, you know, as I say to people, well, you know, just

because you get better at your job, would you then expect your boss to stop paying you because now

you're really good at your job? Actually, it's the reverse. The better you get, the more you

want to get paid. My dogs are both 13 and old, and I love them. And we still go to the woods

together and have fun together. And I still carry food and I still reward them for making good

decisions. And it makes me happy. I get a huge puff of dopamine and oxytocin going through my

brain when I hang out with my dogs and we do stuff together. Yes, me too. And I love it when they do

that little face and they get a little treat. But I don't know. I'm the same. My dogs, 12 and 11,

still get a reward for coming back at the park because, you know, it's a difficult behavior,

even at 12 when they've been doing it for 12 years. It's still an expensive behavior for a dog.

I subscribe to coming back to you. The owner, the handler should be part of the reward.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so many dogs see coming back to the handler or the owner as the

end of their fun. And I want it to be a continuation of their fun.

Continuation of their fun and not, you know, when you see people punishing their dogs for not coming

and the dog gets punished when they come back. It's just so. Yes. Anyway, again, another topic

for a whole podcast episode we could unpack there. The things that we do that actually

create the opposite of what we want dogs to do.

Or how to bite your tongue when you see an owner shouting at their dog. That's that's the next

podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And actually, that's a really that's such a good

point as well. But we talked earlier about the kind of frustrations that we all have,

as you know, because dog trainers, dog owners to the frustrations that we all have. And

yeah, biting our tongue is well, biting our tongue with our own dogs.

Yeah, we often have to do that because guess what? We don't have perfect dogs. Far from it.

Oh, gosh. And even with the best management strategies in place, my dogs still do stuff

that make me just want to inside go. I know why you're doing that. But right now, you know,

I know why you've just flown at the skateboarder and gone to the end of your lead right now.

Kind of wish you hadn't. I think rule number one of being a dog trainer, do not walk your dogs

when you're wearing your training kit and you've got your company logo emblazoned across your head.

Yes, yes, yes. Because full confession, everyone, we definitely do not have perfect dogs.

Oh, we so don't.

Yeah. Oh, Jane, it's been lovely talking to you today. And if people want more information about

you or the Association of Pet Dog Trainers, where can they go?

Anyone who is looking for an accredited trainer can go to the APDT website and that's APDT.co.uk.

We're a nationwide organization in the UK, that is.

Yes. Yeah.

And all you have to do is go to the search for a trainer function and put in your post code

and one of us will pop up. For me personally, I'm in North London here in the UK and my company

is called dogonthehill.co.uk because I've got dogs and I live on a hill,

clues in the name. And all our trainers will offer services over and above pet dog training.

So it's worth going to your local trainer's website to see whether they offer classes or

tracking or scent work or home loan training or we'll all be doing different things.

Fabulous. And I will make sure that we link to those in the episode show notes. And I've also

put some links to organizations outside of the UK that I can recommend for listeners

not tuning in from the UK.

Lovely.

All right. Thank you so much. And I'll look forward. I'm sure we'll have more

chats to come. So thank you so much, Jane.

Thank you for inviting me. It's been great.

You're welcome.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Be Right Back Separation Anxiety podcast.

If you want to find out more about how I can help you further, head over to julienowsmith.com.

Meanwhile, if you enjoyed listening today, I would love it if you would head over

to wherever you listen to your podcast and consider rating my show.

Thanks so much. Good luck with that training and bye for now.